Iran via its proxy just shot multiple missiles at Riyadh Saudi Arabia

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neverfail
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Re: Iran via its proxy just shot multiple missiles at Riyadh Saudi Arabia

Post by neverfail » Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:53 pm

cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:10 pm

Only Europe can defend itself without American help against its regional dreamer - Putin. But it does not have the will. It rather spends on its lavish welfare state.
Nothing to do with spending on the welfare state. A lot to do with the fact that no European state is willing to submit to the authority of any other European state.

Europe is leaderless!

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Milo
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Re: Iran via its proxy just shot multiple missiles at Riyadh Saudi Arabia

Post by Milo » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:03 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:53 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:10 pm

Only Europe can defend itself without American help against its regional dreamer - Putin. But it does not have the will. It rather spends on its lavish welfare state.
Nothing to do with spending on the welfare state. A lot to do with the fact that no European state is willing to submit to the authority of any other European state.

Europe is leaderless!
Agreed.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Iran via its proxy just shot multiple missiles at Riyadh Saudi Arabia

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:23 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:53 pm
Nothing to do with spending on the welfare state. A lot to do with the fact that no European state is willing to submit to the authority of any other European state.
If that were true, Brussels would be known for chocolate and beer instead of being the capital of the most tightly knit superstate of states since the Soviet Union.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

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Alexis
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Re: Iran via its proxy just shot multiple missiles at Riyadh Saudi Arabia

Post by Alexis » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:55 am

Doc wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:23 am
Bolton has two reputations One from working in government through several jobs. The other from Fox news appearances.
Well, if he is a closet good counsel, so much for the better.

I have to note however that not only in his TV appearances, but in his written texts also he has consistently defended the option to attack, and attack again. Recently, North Korea. Before that, Iran.

I'm not sure he's a closet anything. He looks very much like a genuine unrepentant warmonger, only totally indifferent to the consequences of his proposed wars, including for his own country.

A good bogey to be sure. If President Trump controls him... and not the opposite. :|

In 1973, the issue was not America defending a bunch of Jihadists with blood of 3,000 Americans on their hands, like it would have been in 2013. Appreciate Israelis or not as you will, they are anyway a bit better than that :) !

Not taunting anybody, mind you. We were ready to follow the US back then - our president was even pulling very much his leash, pug-like :evil: - while it was the British turn to be smarter. The fact is, we all have our bad moments :cry: ...

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Alexis
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Russia, Europe, America

Post by Alexis » Tue Apr 03, 2018 2:16 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 1:10 pm
I have always thought that Europe is rich enough to defend itself from Russia. Please spend more money on your military so that the US can shift its scarce resources to defend Asia from the behemoth, China who want to reduce all of us into vassal states as in ancient times.
If Russia was agressive, Western Europeans would clearly have enough resources to defend against it. Presently however it is not.

"European defense" is a non-starter due to this fact that the basis of any serious defense is nowadays nuclear. Only nations can have a nuclear deterrence because playing that game means convincing a potential agressor that you would cross the nuclear threshold if pushed "too far", which can be credible only with enough internal cohesion, that only a nation can have. But neither "Europe" nor the European Union are nations... and no amount of EU centralization nor military expenses can fix that.

If Russia became aggressive - once again, it is presently not - the best for Western European defense would be Polish nuclear deterrence along with German one. Which is to say in case Russia became aggressive, the NPT would go down the toilet. Maybe we will do that at some point. It wouldn't be very expensive, incidentally.

But there is presently no need for that.

Also, Europe should forget about Paris Accord so that it can increase its energy production by fracking.
That won't happen. We need less, not more degraded soil and nature. We need less, not more carbon use.

The world is full of bad guys wanting to return to past glories.
Yes. There also is in this world a superpower that until recently was the lone, one and only one, and which looks a bit disturbed and confused at seeing a rival superpower is emerging in Asia and its recent wars have been rather disappointing.

There is a risk that this superpower would do some pretty stupid things as a result of this trouble. The American people sent in the White House a guy with the mission to prevent any further military stupidity... but he displays worrying signs of not being up to that task, or even possibly doing the exact reverse.

Stay tuned...

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cassowary
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Re: Iran via its proxy just shot multiple missiles at Riyadh Saudi Arabia

Post by cassowary » Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:39 am

But Alexis, Russia has been aggressive. Look what happened in Ukraine and Georgia. If the Europeans are more concerned with American stupidity and not Russian mischief, why were they in a panic when Trump suggested that the US might not defend them if they don't spend more on defense?

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Alexis
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Re: Iran via its proxy just shot multiple missiles at Riyadh Saudi Arabia

Post by Alexis » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:23 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:39 am
But Alexis, Russia has been aggressive. Look what happened in Ukraine and Georgia.
Georgian president Saakashvili started a war and ordered an artillery barrage against a quiet little city at night (Tskhinvali) killing several hundreds civilians who were under Russian protection, along with a dozen Russian peace soldiers. Russia reacted the way any other country would.

Ukrainian elected government was overthrown by far-right militias, helping a takeover by forces aligned and helped by the US. Russia reacted by forcing a referendum in the part of Ukraine which hosted Russia's naval base of Sebastopol (Ukraine).

In both cases, the verb is the same: to react.

One may approve or criticize those reactions - though honestly in the case of Georgia I can't see how - they were in any event reactions. Even if one thinks the referendum in Crimea was a shameful act, it remains that Russia used military force to organize it only because force had been used before to attack one of Russia's critical interests, in this case the democratic process in Ukraine so as to make that country into a took against Russia.

Pragmatically speaking, the one and only thing to do is to abstain from further attacking Russia's critical interests.

Neither Germany, nor France, Italy or any other plans to conspire to use armed extremists to overthrow Russian-friendly governments nor to bomb civilians protected by Russia. As a consequence, Russia is not a military threat for us.

If the Europeans are more concerned with American stupidity and not Russian mischief, why were they in a panic when Trump suggested that the US might not defend them if they don't spend more on defense?
Actually, not all Europeans were panicked. Here in France, quite a few people were salivating at the idea of Trump dismantling NATO, which would have convinced our neighbours to see things our way :) ...

Practically speaking, during a few weeks or a couple months, you could see articles in German press pondering the "unthinkable", that is German nuclear bombs. Or alternatively arranging with the French or the British to somewhat "share" nuclear deterrent.

Those ideas came to nought because Trump recoiled from his NATO-pronouncements. But the Germans were indeed thinking in the right direction: if the US stopped guaranteeing their security, the question would be first of all nuclear.

Not specifically against Russia, by the way. But as a guarantee.

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Doc
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Re: Iran via its proxy just shot multiple missiles at Riyadh Saudi Arabia

Post by Doc » Tue Apr 03, 2018 5:24 am

Alexis wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:55 am
Doc wrote:
Sun Apr 01, 2018 4:23 am
Bolton has two reputations One from working in government through several jobs. The other from Fox news appearances.
Well, if he is a closet good counsel, so much for the better.

I have to note however that not only in his TV appearances, but in his written texts also he has consistently defended the option to attack, and attack again. Recently, North Korea. Before that, Iran.

I'm not sure he's a closet anything. He looks very much like a genuine unrepentant warmonger, only totally indifferent to the consequences of his proposed wars, including for his own country.

A good bogey to be sure. If President Trump controls him... and not the opposite. :|
I guess we will know when things happen

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2018/04/03 ... exist.html

Saudi Arabia's crown prince slams Obama's Iran nuclear deal, backs Israel's right to exist


In 1973, the issue was not America defending a bunch of Jihadists with blood of 3,000 Americans on their hands, like it would have been in 2013. Appreciate Israelis or not as you will, they are anyway a bit better than that :) !

Not taunting anybody, mind you. We were ready to follow the US back then - our president was even pulling very much his leash, pug-like :evil: - while it was the British turn to be smarter. The fact is, we all have our bad moments :cry: ...
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell

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