Europe will be Muslim

Discussion of current events
User avatar
SteveFoerster
Posts: 1143
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:17 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA and Dominica, West Indies
Contact:

Re: Europe will be Muslim

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:46 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:46 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:32 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:33 am
The alternative to Islam is not Christianity, it is a healthy secular view of the world. Religion may have its positive points, when it promotes a code of ethics, but educated people don't need a religion for that. Eventually Muslims wil become as secular as Christians and that will be the end of the problem. All we have to do, meanwhile, is stop the more fanatical Muslims. The idea of re-evangelizing Europe gives me the creeps...
I agree completely with every word of this!
:shock: :shock: :shock:
No one was more surprised than I! ;)
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 1143
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Europe will be Muslim

Post by Sertorio » Mon Mar 26, 2018 2:59 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 7:46 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:46 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:32 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:33 am
The alternative to Islam is not Christianity, it is a healthy secular view of the world. Religion may have its positive points, when it promotes a code of ethics, but educated people don't need a religion for that. Eventually Muslims wil become as secular as Christians and that will be the end of the problem. All we have to do, meanwhile, is stop the more fanatical Muslims. The idea of re-evangelizing Europe gives me the creeps...
I agree completely with every word of this!
:shock: :shock: :shock:
No one was more surprised than I! ;)
:D

User avatar
dagbay
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:27 pm

Re: Europe will be Muslim

Post by dagbay » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:16 am

Dear Sertorio, I agree that there is a strong Muslim presence in many of Europe's large cities. It is clear too that the migration will not be stopped anytime soon because Europe is older and the younger generation that usually fights wars is apathetic and small to resist the influx
The process will take some time as the immigrants numbers are yet insignificant vs the overall population but that does not preclude majorities in major cities and substantial political power.
It is unclear if Europe will secularise muslims or Muslim will islamise Europe though I think that the latter outcome is more likely. In any case at this time it seems that Christianity has faded in Europe and is not a contender.
I also want to comment on your assertion that civilised people do not need religious beliefs to conduct themselves in a moral way. I accept the idea in the ideal world where everyone is civilised to equal degree. But in the real world there are variations which allow for violation of the uniform moral code. Religion or a derivative belief system works better in a world of real people and even there it often fails.
One other note on this Secular basis for civilised morality has no rules but those decided by the majority of civilised people and as such they are forever flexible and mutating in many cases as the present is showing to the detriment of the society.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 1143
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Europe will be Muslim

Post by Sertorio » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:40 am

dagbay wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:16 am
Dear Sertorio, I agree that there is a strong Muslim presence in many of Europe's large cities. It is clear too that the migration will not be stopped anytime soon because Europe is older and the younger generation that usually fights wars is apathetic and small to resist the influx
The process will take some time as the immigrants numbers are yet insignificant vs the overall population but that does not preclude majorities in major cities and substantial political power.
It is unclear if Europe will secularise muslims or Muslim will islamise Europe though I think that the latter outcome is more likely. In any case at this time it seems that Christianity has faded in Europe and is not a contender.
I also want to comment on your assertion that civilised people do not need religious beliefs to conduct themselves in a moral way. I accept the idea in the ideal world where everyone is civilised to equal degree. But in the real world there are variations which allow for violation of the uniform moral code. Religion or a derivative belief system works better in a world of real people and even there it often fails.
One other note on this Secular basis for civilised morality has no rules but those decided by the majority of civilised people and as such they are forever flexible and mutating in many cases as the present is showing to the detriment of the society.
I don't think that people who would not voluntarily adhere to a code of ethics, would do so under the threat of being forever condemned to hell. An increasing adherence to a code of ethics is one manifestation of evolution. As such it will take time to reach the majority of people, but I don't know of any better alternative. Religion, no matter how benign it tries to be, is always a form of compulsion, or even oppression. To give you an example, it wasn't religion that put an end to slavery, it was the growing awareness that slavery was evil. And in our days, religious people are the ones pushing for wars. All in the name of God (or Allah)...

User avatar
Milo
Posts: 992
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Europe will be Muslim

Post by Milo » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:48 am

As Muslim immigration goes on I feel that Islam will weaken in its heartland and in the west. I see parents in traditional dress with children not, as opposed to those traditions carrying on. Meanwhile traditional society in the Muslim world continues to be breached by mobile phones at an ever increasing rate.

Of course Muslims aggressively lobby in the west for legal changes to cater to their need for that political control that Islam depends on to survive.

The race for the future of secular government may be a photo finish.

Jim the Moron
Posts: 707
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: Europe will be Muslim

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:01 pm

"EU Official: Islam is Part of Our History, Present, and Future"
(And the same may be said about paganism in Europe.)

https://www.pjmedia.com/homeland-securi ... ent-future

User avatar
Alexis
Posts: 170
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2016 2:46 pm

Let Commissars enjoy their day, for it will be but a day

Post by Alexis » Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:30 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:01 pm
"EU Official: Islam is Part of Our History, Present, and Future"
Timmermans said: "The Commission is strongly committed to promoting diversity in Europe". That much is true.

Incidentally, Europeans won't remain subservient to Commissars indefinitely.

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 1143
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Let Commissars enjoy their day, for it will be but a day

Post by Sertorio » Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:08 am

Alexis wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:30 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:01 pm
"EU Official: Islam is Part of Our History, Present, and Future"
Timmermans said: "The Commission is strongly committed to promoting diversity in Europe". That much is true.

Incidentally, Europeans won't remain subservient to Commissars indefinitely.
Individual people's beliefs will become irrelevant to the future European society. Sooner or later people will stop concerning themselves with those beliefs, and people will be treated for what they do, not for what their beliefs are. That's what a secular society is.

User avatar
dagbay
Posts: 197
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:27 pm

Re: Europe will be Muslim

Post by dagbay » Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:51 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:08 am
Alexis wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 1:30 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 9:01 pm
"EU Official: Islam is Part of Our History, Present, and Future"
Timmermans said: "The Commission is strongly committed to promoting diversity in Europe". That much is true.

Incidentally, Europeans won't remain subservient to Commissars indefinitely.
Individual people's beliefs will become irrelevant to the future European society. Sooner or later people will stop concerning themselves with those beliefs, and people will be treated for what they do, not for what their beliefs are. That's what a secular society is.
I gave your position some thought Sertorio, and with respect I disagree, unless your term "sooner or later" is a reference to a few milenia or to the comming of the Messiah.
Humanity is changing in many ways but basic instincts are not. It would be nice if a futuristic human society was able to reach such uniform civilized behavior as you portray. I can see it as your ideal but in my mind unless you plan to clone people that ideal will not be reached in any foreseeable time.
As long as natural selection has its way there will be exploiters and exploited and bullies praying on the weak. A code of ethics that is unchallengable much like a religious dictat is the only way to hold the bar fixed and let people measure themselves up to.
Any code that is administered by people will evolve to undesirable subversion as history repeatedly demonstrated.

Another key question is is your utopia a desirable society?
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
Posts: 1657
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: Europe will be Muslim

Post by neverfail » Fri Apr 06, 2018 5:04 pm

dagbay wrote:
Fri Apr 06, 2018 12:51 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Apr 03, 2018 4:08 am


Individual people's beliefs will become irrelevant to the future European society. Sooner or later people will stop concerning themselves with those beliefs, and people will be treated for what they do, not for what their beliefs are. That's what a secular society is.
I gave your position some thought Sertorio, and with respect I disagree, unless your term "sooner or later" is a reference to a few milenia or to the comming of the Messiah.


Another key question is is your utopia a desirable society?
Dagbay;

Like all other former christians who have lost confidence in the holy trinity and all associated with it; Sertorio cannot endure living his life in a spiritual vacuum. So like a lot of them; a passionate belief in human progress and of the paradise on Earth to come are employed as counterfeit substitutes for redemption and an eternal afterlife now deemed unreal and therefore unreachable. ;)

Post Reply