State of the Union

Discussion of current events
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Doc
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Re: good news that the US is undergoing revival.

Post by Doc » Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:58 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 1:46 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:25 pm
I don't think it will come to a civil war. Probably the most extreme outcome would be that parts of the three pacific coast state will succeed and either join Mexico are create a military alliance with ChIna or North Korea and become client states of which ever. .
FFS, no one is seceding over domestic policy. And in the unthinkable event that the Pacific states broke away, they'd separately still be one of the most powerful countries on Earth.
Only the parts within 75 or so of the coast would succeed because that is where all the people live that would want to. And if you haven't noticed lately California's government is in a socialist race to the bottom. California is for example is now the poorest state.

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la ... story.html
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell

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SteveFoerster
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Re: State of the Union

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:19 pm

Somehow, I doubt that an independent Pacifica would be a shithole country.
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Doc
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Re: State of the Union

Post by Doc » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:17 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:19 pm
Somehow, I doubt that an independent Pacifica would be a shithole country.
I don't know Steve. On paper Venezuela should be one of the richest countries on earth
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell

neverfail
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Re: California the flame that draws the moths?

Post by neverfail » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:28 pm

Doc (and SF):

You might think nothing of it as you are probably used to this sort of stuff: but might I say that I still find it utterly astonishing that your state governments and even municipalities provide welfare assistance at all. You see, in the federation of which I am privileged to be a citizen welfare payments are entirely the responsibility of our federal level of government - as is raising the tax revenue to fund them.

It means that payments are standardised throughout the country ensuring fair and equable treatment of the needy throughout (or as close as you can get in this flawed, imperfect world).

In the US situation I can foresee, by contrast, unequal treatment as some states are obviously more generous in what they provide than others. So might I suggest the following:

California might have a higher than US average not as a reflection of the state of their regional economy or merely because it has made a hash of welfare payments (which seem to be done very cost-ineffective inefficiently there) but because the state attracts welfare recipients from elsewhere in large numbers. In addition to the payments there is also California's benign winter climate to make life easier. So if you can make it to the golden state, then why not go there?

If, as the article alleges, the Democrats who rule California are motivated by ideology instead of by cost-benefit then they must be a pack of idiots.

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Re: State of the Union

Post by neverfail » Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:30 pm

Doc wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:17 pm
. On paper Venezuela should be one of the richest countries on earth
On paper, the moon should be made of cream cheese. :D

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Re: State of the Union

Post by Doc » Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:40 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:30 pm
Doc wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:17 pm
. On paper Venezuela should be one of the richest countries on earth
On paper, the moon should be made of cream cheese. :D
Well then we need to gifure out how to crash the Moon into Denmark. Then cheese Danish for everyone !!
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell

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Re: California the flame that draws the moths?

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:45 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:28 pm
Doc (and SF):

You might think nothing of it as you are probably used to this sort of stuff: but might I say that I still find it utterly astonishing that your state governments and even municipalities provide welfare assistance at all. You see, in the federation of which I am privileged to be a citizen welfare payments are entirely the responsibility of our federal level of government - as is raising the tax revenue to fund them.
In the U.S., the idea that some of this is decentralised isn't just a way of doing less of it. It also means that in states and municipalities where people want more welfare than average, they have a way of enacting that without being stopped by a lack of enthusiasm from people who don't share their views and are, to be honest, culturally far different from them. After all, the U.S. is an incredibly culturally diverse country of 323 million people that stretches from Guam to St. Croix. Expecting one size to fit all would be the approach better characterised as "utterly astonishing" -- it's more amazing that there are as many federal programmes as there are, including the Big Three of Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid, which together are a supermajority of the federal budget.
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Re: California the flame that draws the moths?

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:55 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:45 am

It also means that in states and municipalities where people want more welfare than average, ....

Want more welfare? :lol:

Does anyone really want to have to live off welfare? Steve, I have always believed that worldwide, welfare policies are enacted in response to NEEDS, not wants.

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Re: California the flame that draws the moths?

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:14 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:55 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:45 am

It also means that in states and municipalities where people want more welfare than average, ....

Want more welfare? :lol:

Does anyone really want to have to live off welfare? Steve, I have always believed that worldwide, welfare policies are enacted in response to NEEDS, not wants.
Did you seriously not understand that I meant that, on aggregate, people in one state might think that there's more of a need for specific programs than people in other states?
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neverfail
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Re: California the flame that draws the moths?

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:30 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 1:14 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 12:55 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:45 am

It also means that in states and municipalities where people want more welfare than average, ....

Want more welfare? :lol:

Does anyone really want to have to live off welfare? Steve, I have always believed that worldwide, welfare policies are enacted in response to NEEDS, not wants.
Did you seriously not understand that I meant that, on aggregate, people in one state might think that there's more of a need for specific programs than people in other states?
Yes, I did not understand Steve as the words "need" and"want" have different meanings.

I acknowledged that in light of how powers and responsibilities are divided between the federal and state levels of government in your country that it is amazing that The Federal has as much involvement as it does. May I suggest that this is because they have found that in practice you cannot rely on all of the states to do the right thing?

I could mentally picture how in some state, county of municipality where there is deep dislike of racial minorities they would deliberately underspend on areas of social welfare that are within that particular regional jurisdiction on the understanding that denying the needed support may give them an incentive to move on to become someone else's problem. If some poor white trash misses out as well, then tough luck!

Does this often happen in practice, do you think?

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