The EU, Brexit, and King Henry VIII

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Milo
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Re: The EU, Brexit, and King Henry VIII

Post by Milo » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:52 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:19 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:07 pm
And it turns out that DUP are kingmakers this time around, although through an informal "confidence and supply" agreement rather than through a formal coalition. Good move on their part, as they get to veto anything they don't like, yet aren't responsible if things go awry.

Speaking of Northern Ireland, I was also fascinated to see Sinn Féin do so well. Maybe more NI people than we think would rather reunify with Ireland than face Brexit uncertainty?
The Catholic minority (around 40% of total) would almost to a man or woman be in favour of unification with the Republic of Ireland. The rub lies in the fact the NI protestants would, likewise, still be OPPOSED to it with a passion that informs them that wherever Britain goes we must go with it in our own best interests - indeed for their own survival as a community.

Milo proclaimed in his above post that from his experience NI protestants tend to be more English than the English themselves. Alas, Milo seems to have fallen into the trap of confusing Englishness with Britishness. The two concepts might overlap but are still not identical. NI protestants identify as BRITISH, not English.

The point that a lot of non-Northern Irish fail to comprehend is that the Northern Irish protestants (NIP's?) have spent the past 4 centuries, their entire history, in ferocious opposition to being absorbed into the overwhelmingly Gaelic Catholic population of the island of Ireland. Circumstances from time to time might change but their struggle seems eternal.

"British" is really an umbrella (or omnibus) term that covers up to half a dozen identifiable nationalities who inhabit the British Isles. Of course the NIP's are passionately pro-British because identifying with the UK and therefore being in a position to manipulate British politics in ways favourable to themselves is literally their meal ticket.
I stand corrected: British.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: The EU, Brexit, and King Henry VIII

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:29 pm

My maternal grandmother was Ulster Scots, so I was aware of the regions fascinating demography. If I recall correctly, though, eventually the Catholics will no no longer be the minority, and then it will be interesting to see what happens. (Hopefully not interesting in the Chinese sense!)
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Jim the Moron
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Re: The EU, Brexit, and King Henry VIII

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:20 pm

As it happens, Mrs. May is quite happy, even if temporarily, with the support of the English, er, British, folks in No. Ireland. What next, will the Black Irish turn Brown? Or will leprechauns turn blue? We await clarification.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: The EU, Brexit, and King Henry VIII

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:08 pm

If so, then she's "happy" in the sense of having just dodged a bullet, and not in the sense of having just had something actually good happen to her.
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cassowary
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Re: The EU, Brexit, and King Henry VIII

Post by cassowary » Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:57 pm

I am curious to know what did May give to the DUP in order to win the over. Does anybody know?

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SteveFoerster
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Re: The EU, Brexit, and King Henry VIII

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:03 pm

cassowary wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:57 pm
I am curious to know what did May give to the DUP in order to win the over. Does anybody know?
DUP was already the Conservatives' natural partner in Northern Ireland. They're socially conservative, pro-Brexit, and pro-Union. She's probably have to guarantee that any final deal with the EU leaves a soft border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That should be a fun negotiating challenge.
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Jim the Moron
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Re: The EU, Brexit, and King Henry VIII

Post by Jim the Moron » Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:27 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:03 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:57 pm
I am curious to know what did May give to the DUP in order to win the over. Does anybody know?
DUP was already the Conservatives' natural partner in Northern Ireland. They're socially conservative, pro-Brexit, and pro-Union. She's probably have to guarantee that any final deal with the EU leaves a soft border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That should be a fun negotiating challenge.
Yes - there seems to be a "natural" partnership there.

"DUP's 'positive talks' over Tory deal"
http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-40236152

"This deal would see the DUP promise to back the government in votes of no confidence and supply - or Budget - issues. In return, the government would support or fund some of the DUP's policies. These deals tend to be loose and a long way short of a formal coalition."

neverfail
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Re: The EU, Brexit, and King Henry VIII

Post by neverfail » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:06 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:27 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:03 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:57 pm
I am curious to know what did May give to the DUP in order to win the over. Does anybody know?
DUP was already the Conservatives' natural partner in Northern Ireland. They're socially conservative, pro-Brexit, and pro-Union. She's probably have to guarantee that any final deal with the EU leaves a soft border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That should be a fun negotiating challenge.
Yes - there seems to be a "natural" partnership there.

"DUP's 'positive talks' over Tory deal"
http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-40236152

"This deal would see the DUP promise to back the government in votes of no confidence and supply - or Budget - issues. In return, the government would support or fund some of the DUP's policies. These deals tend to be loose and a long way short of a formal coalition."
Better than spending the next 5 year Parliamentary term as the party in Opposition.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: The EU, Brexit, and King Henry VIII

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Jun 11, 2017 7:25 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:06 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:27 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 11:03 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sat Jun 10, 2017 10:57 pm
I am curious to know what did May give to the DUP in order to win the over. Does anybody know?
DUP was already the Conservatives' natural partner in Northern Ireland. They're socially conservative, pro-Brexit, and pro-Union. She's probably have to guarantee that any final deal with the EU leaves a soft border between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. That should be a fun negotiating challenge.
Yes - there seems to be a "natural" partnership there.

"DUP's 'positive talks' over Tory deal"
http://www.bbc.com/news/election-2017-40236152

"This deal would see the DUP promise to back the government in votes of no confidence and supply - or Budget - issues. In return, the government would support or fund some of the DUP's policies. These deals tend to be loose and a long way short of a formal coalition."
Better than spending the next 5 year Parliamentary term as the party in Opposition.
It's tough to imagine that, even without an agreement with the DUP. A minority Labour government would basically be unworkable with these numbers.
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