What is going on in Iran - A new uprising?

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cassowary
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Re: Trump sparked the uprising in Iran

Post by cassowary » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:04 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:32 pm
neverfail wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:02 pm
The reason why Mosaddegh nationalise that country's oil business was for exactly the same reason that in Argentina in 1946 the Peron government there nationalised that country's formerly British owned railway network to widespread popular acclaim. People simply get pissed off at seeing one of their country's key productive assets owned by foreigners in their own best interests, not the country's.

Affronted national pride!

Nationalism cassowary, not socialism!
Seizing the means of production is the dictionary definition of socialism. Cass sometimes calls things "socialism" that aren't, but that hardly excuses you for doing the opposite, particularly so smugly....
Then it is time to change the dictionary definition of Socialism. Most modern-day Socialist Parties no longer ask for nationalization. The only old school Socialists I know are Fatty Kim and Castro. Instead, Socialist Parties are pushing for higher taxes to fund every larger welfare states.

My definition is based on what mainstream western socialist parties are advocating.

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Sertorio
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Re: Trump sparked the uprising in Iran

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:45 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:04 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:32 pm
neverfail wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:02 pm
The reason why Mosaddegh nationalise that country's oil business was for exactly the same reason that in Argentina in 1946 the Peron government there nationalised that country's formerly British owned railway network to widespread popular acclaim. People simply get pissed off at seeing one of their country's key productive assets owned by foreigners in their own best interests, not the country's.

Affronted national pride!

Nationalism cassowary, not socialism!
Seizing the means of production is the dictionary definition of socialism. Cass sometimes calls things "socialism" that aren't, but that hardly excuses you for doing the opposite, particularly so smugly....
Then it is time to change the dictionary definition of Socialism. Most modern-day Socialist Parties no longer ask for nationalization. The only old school Socialists I know are Fatty Kim and Castro. Instead, Socialist Parties are pushing for higher taxes to fund every larger welfare states.

My definition is based on what mainstream western socialist parties are advocating.
You should pay a little bit more attention to what Libertarian Socialists are proposing.
(...)

What is implied by the term ‘libertarian socialism’?

The idea that socialism is first and foremost about freedom and therefore about overcoming the domination, repression, and alienation that block the free flow of human creativity, thought, and action. We do not equate socialism with planning, state control, or nationalization of industry, although we understand that in a socialist society (not “under” socialism) economic activity will be collectively controlled, managed, planned, and owned. Similarly, we believe that socialism will involve equality, but we do not think that socialism is equality, for it is possible to conceive of a society where everyone is equally oppressed. We think that socialism is incompatible with one-party states, with constraints on freedom of speech, with an elite exercising power ‘on behalf of’ the people, with leader cults, with any of the other devices by which the dying society seeks to portray itself as the new society.

An approach to socialism that incorporates cultural revolution, women’s and children’s liberation, and the critique and transformation of daily life, as well as the more traditional concerns of socialist politics. A politics that is completely revolutionary because it seeks to transform all of reality. We do not think that capturing the economy and the state lead automatically to the transformation of the rest of social being, nor do we equate liberation with changing our life-styles and our heads. Capitalism is a total system that invades all areas of life: socialism must be the overcoming of capitalist reality in its entirety, or it is nothing.

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library ... -socialism
(...)

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cassowary
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Re: Trump sparked the uprising in Iran

Post by cassowary » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:53 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:45 am

You should pay a little bit more attention to what Libertarian Socialists are proposing.


(...)

What is implied by the term ‘libertarian socialism’?

The idea that socialism is first and foremost about freedom and therefore about overcoming the domination, repression, and alienation that block the free flow of human creativity, thought, and action. We do not equate socialism with planning, state control, or nationalization of industry, although we understand that in a socialist society (not “under” socialism) economic activity will be collectively controlled, managed, planned, and owned. Similarly, we believe that socialism will involve equality, but we do not think that socialism is equality, for it is possible to conceive of a society where everyone is equally oppressed. We think that socialism is incompatible with one-party states, with constraints on freedom of speech, with an elite exercising power ‘on behalf of’ the people, with leader cults, with any of the other devices by which the dying society seeks to portray itself as the new society.

An approach to socialism that incorporates cultural revolution, women’s and children’s liberation, and the critique and transformation of daily life, as well as the more traditional concerns of socialist politics. A politics that is completely revolutionary because it seeks to transform all of reality. We do not think that capturing the economy and the state lead automatically to the transformation of the rest of social being, nor do we equate liberation with changing our life-styles and our heads. Capitalism is a total system that invades all areas of life: socialism must be the overcoming of capitalist reality in its entirety, or it is nothing.

https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library ... -socialism
(...)
Sounds like a confused bunch of mumbo jumbo that defines Socialism as what it is not more than what it is. This phrase sounds ominous:
"... although we understand that in a socialist society (not “under” socialism) economic activity will be collectively controlled, managed, planned, and owned. "
Sounds totalitarian to me. It claims to be not like that but clearly when economic activity will be collectively controlled, managed, planned and owned, you will require a totalitarian society. Round and round it goes and we end up at the same spot - a totalitarian state.

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Doc
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Re: Trump sparked the uprising in Iran

Post by Doc » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:42 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:04 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:32 pm
neverfail wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 4:02 pm
The reason why Mosaddegh nationalise that country's oil business was for exactly the same reason that in Argentina in 1946 the Peron government there nationalised that country's formerly British owned railway network to widespread popular acclaim. People simply get pissed off at seeing one of their country's key productive assets owned by foreigners in their own best interests, not the country's.

Affronted national pride!

Nationalism cassowary, not socialism!
Seizing the means of production is the dictionary definition of socialism. Cass sometimes calls things "socialism" that aren't, but that hardly excuses you for doing the opposite, particularly so smugly....
Then it is time to change the dictionary definition of Socialism. Most modern-day Socialist Parties no longer ask for nationalization. The only old school Socialists I know are Fatty Kim and Castro. Instead, Socialist Parties are pushing for higher taxes to fund every larger welfare states.

My definition is based on what mainstream western socialist parties are advocating.

Maduro is seizing companies and jailing their owners
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

neverfail
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Re: Trump sparked the uprising in Iran

Post by neverfail » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:30 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:32 pm

Seizing the means of production is the dictionary definition of socialism. Cass sometimes calls things "socialism" that aren't, but that hardly excuses you for doing the opposite, particularly so smugly....
It was the WORKERS, not then state, who were supposed to seize the means of production Steve - according to Marx's forecast.

To resort to a literal definition like that (and I am assuming you are sincere in stating your beliefs and are not merely trying to score debating points :) ) is the standard ploy of a Creationist: you know, the type of Bible thumper who treats the Book of Genesis as literal history. Outside of your handful of major metropolitan centres I believe that the backblocks USA has no shortage of such blockheads.

When the private sector of a country lacks sufficient capital to attempt a takeover bid for a prime productive resource from foreign propriters; a government takeover is an alternative way of restoring ownership of the resource to the nation.

The motive there is nationalistic, not socialist.

See the difference?

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dagbay
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Re: What is going on in Iran - A new uprising?

Post by dagbay » Thu Jan 04, 2018 5:37 pm

Spangler published his predictions about Iran and it sorry state. His thesis is that the demonstrations are desperate cries for reform of a dying country.
https://pjmedia.com/spengler/norm-not-d ... xtinction/
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Trump sparked the uprising in Iran

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:45 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:04 am
Then it is time to change the dictionary definition of Socialism. Most modern-day Socialist Parties no longer ask for nationalization. The only old school Socialists I know are Fatty Kim and Castro. Instead, Socialist Parties are pushing for higher taxes to fund every larger welfare states. My definition is based on what mainstream western socialist parties are advocating.
And if libertarian parties called for increasing the size and scope of the state, they wouldn't be libertarian anymore, regardless of whether they kept the name. Besides, there are plenty of real socialists out there (q.v., below).

Socialism includes nationalisation. A market economy with a welfare state layered on top is not socialism, for despite your insistence to the contrary, the term does not mean "anything other than laissaz-faire".
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:45 am
You should pay a little bit more attention to what Libertarian Socialists are proposing.
I'm sure I shouldn't, because its sounds like the sort of obscurity the membership list of which has a grand total of six names on it. But let's at least skim it:

"Perhaps most important, the adjective ‘libertarian’ raises questions in the minds of those who encounter it, whereas the term ‘socialism’ by itself tends to let itself be taken for granted, to act as an uninteresting vessel which each person fills with his preconceived ideas."

I.e., they use it just to get attention.

"We do not equate socialism with planning, state control, or nationalization of industry, although we understand that in a socialist society (not “under” socialism) economic activity will be collectively controlled, managed, planned, and owned."

In other words, they're socialists, not libertarians.

Q.E.D.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

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cassowary
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Re: Trump sparked the uprising in Iran

Post by cassowary » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:56 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:45 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:04 am
Then it is time to change the dictionary definition of Socialism. Most modern-day Socialist Parties no longer ask for nationalization. The only old school Socialists I know are Fatty Kim and Castro. Instead, Socialist Parties are pushing for higher taxes to fund every larger welfare states. My definition is based on what mainstream western socialist parties are advocating.
And if libertarian parties called for increasing the size and scope of the state, they wouldn't be libertarian anymore, regardless of whether they kept the name. Besides, there are plenty of real socialists out there (q.v., below).

Socialism includes nationalisation. A market economy with a welfare state layered on top is not socialism, for despite your insistence to the contrary, the term does not mean "anything other than laissaz-faire".
Definitions do change, Steve. The original definition of Liberalism is different from how we understand the term today. That is why some people called it "classical liberalism."
The term classical liberalism was applied in retrospect to distinguish earlier 19th-century liberalism from the newer social liberalism.[8] The phrase "classical liberalism" is also sometimes used to refer to all forms of liberalism before the 20th century and some conservatives and libertarians (especially in the United States) use the term classical liberalism to describe their belief in the primacy of individual freedom and minimal government..
So liberalism is what we now what we call conservatism.

neverfail
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Re: What is going on in Iran - A new uprising?

Post by neverfail » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:02 pm

The protests have petered out. They were not a revolutionary upheaval nor even the beginnings of one. Just a cry of pain from an unhappy populace with no agenda for reform nor any shared vision of change - nor any visible leadership to organise and direct them.

If (as Cassowary gleefully speculates) agents of the US or Israel played any part in fomenting this recent unrest then their governments were ill advised in backing such a loser - and they did the people of Iran no favour as well.

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Milo
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Re: What is going on in Iran - A new uprising?

Post by Milo » Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:14 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jan 05, 2018 7:02 pm
The protests have petered out. They were not a revolutionary upheaval nor even the beginnings of one. Just a cry of pain from an unhappy populace with no agenda for reform nor any shared vision of change - nor any visible leadership to organise and direct them.

If (as Cassowary gleefully speculates) agents of the US or Israel played any part in fomenting this recent unrest then their governments were ill advised in backing such a loser - and they did the people of Iran no favour as well.
We still await the first civil society in the Muslim world. We may wait forever at this rate.

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