Tax plan raises taxes on liberal states and lowers them for the rest.

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neverfail
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Re: Tax plan raises taxes on liberal states and lowers them for the rest.

Post by neverfail » Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:47 pm

Steve, I want to thank you for the pains you have taken in your reply. Little for me to disagree with and being there you have the tactical advantage of being more directly "tuned in" to the subject matter under discussion. But allow me to chew the fat a little over this:
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:19 am

Well, wealthier as a result of greater population density or in some cases (e.g., Hawaii, Maryland) from federal spending. That's not exactly "efficiency".
"Wealthier as a result of greater population density" you say? I humbly suggest the exact opposite is true and the population density is in response to the wealth routinely generated.

Hawaii, Maryland? No doubt that the fiscal spinoff from the Pearl Harbour naval base would be important for the Hawaii regional economy whilst Maryland likewise gets a spin-off from the fact that a lot of Federal agencies and facilities would be based there as spill-over from (otherwise overcrowded) Washington DC. But when all is said and done I believe that you are hair splitting here Steve. The vast majority of (so called) blue states, especially the big, highly urbanised ones, would generate their wealth predominantly through private enterprise endeavour to the point where Federal spending would be relatively insignificant contributor to the whole.

By the way: you realise that the sacred cow of US politics, farm subsidies, have long represented a tax on the blue states in order to prop up the regional economies of the red ones. How can anyone sincere in his belief in the efficacy of a market forces based economy tolerate that?

No sign in the current tax package of any urge to reform that.

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cassowary
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Re: Tax plan raises taxes on liberal states and lowers them for the rest.

Post by cassowary » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:16 am

Milo wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:01 pm
As a matter of fact it is greatly disputed whether this will cut taxes for anyone except the rich and many think it will create huge deficits.

So, again, likely not even wrong.
It depends on the growth rate. The higher the growth, the lower the deficit. Nobody knows how the economy will be doing in 5 to 10 years time. But Trump's policies of lower taxes, deregulation, fossil fuel promotion will boost growth.

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cassowary
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Re: Tax plan raises taxes on liberal states and lowers them for the rest.

Post by cassowary » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:20 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:09 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:16 pm

When the Republicans crafted the tax reform bill, they had to ensure the budget deficit don't increase by more than $1.5 trillion over ten years. This means they must raise revenue somewhere. Better to raise it from the blue states than red states. They can't punish their voters, right?
But as the blue states are richer that means they must be more efficient generators of wealth than the red states. Why penalise the efficient? For years you have been telling me that you are opposed to that cass? Am I to believe that you have now turned against your own proclaimed guiding principle? :o

They are not more efficient. It is just that they have the big cities in the blue states - NYC, LA, Chicago etc. Everybody knows that city incomes are higher than rural incomes.
.......................................................................................................................

In any case, I don't believe that the Republicans in Congress care a shit about the budget deficit. What they would be more concerned about is something much closer to home.
I think they do. But anybody wanting to cut the deficit must cut spending. That is political suicide. What must be done is to cut down on the entitlements - Medicaid, Social Security and Unemployment benefits. But doing the right thing is sometimes impossible in a democracy. That is why I say that democracy needs to be reformed.
Members of the US House of Representatives have to stand for election once every two years. Mid term congressional elections are due next year. Being able to take home a swag of tax breaks to their constituents would do no harm in recommending them for re-election.

Getting a windfall of tax concessions from Uncle Sam makes voters happy. Happy voters are strongly inclined to support the status-quo.
Well, that is true.
Cass, this is nothing but a grubby boondoggle framed to benefit the initiators; not even for the supposed beneficiaries. So please stop trying to pretend they did it in the national interest.
Lower taxes will generate economic growth and jobs. It is in the national interest.

neverfail
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Re: Tax plan raises taxes on liberal states and lowers them for the rest.

Post by neverfail » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:20 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:09 am
But as the blue states are richer that means they must be more efficient generators of wealth than the red states. Why penalise the efficient? For years you have been telling me that you are opposed to that cass? Am I to believe that you have now turned against your own proclaimed guiding principle? :o
cassowary wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:16 pm
They are not more efficient. It is just that they have the big cities in the blue states - NYC, LA, Chicago etc. Everybody knows that city incomes are higher than rural incomes.

Well of course they are cassowary. The higher real incomes reflect higher per capita productivity.
neverfail wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:09 am
In any case, I don't believe that the Republicans in Congress care a shit about the budget deficit. What they would be more concerned about is something much closer to home.
cassowary wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:16 pm
I think they do. But anybody wanting to cut the deficit must cut spending. That is political suicide. What must be done is to cut down on the entitlements - Medicaid, Social Security and Unemployment benefits.
Oh sure, hit the little guys and drive them into utter destitution. Why not cut down on the entitlements of multi-billionaire donors to the Republican Party? Your pious sanctimony offends! As Steve Foerster has testified (above) nobody powerful in Washington cares less about the budget deficit: they only pretend to. It is known as paying lip service to a worthy ideal.

neverfail wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:09 am
Cass, this is nothing but a grubby boondoggle framed to benefit the initiators; not even for the supposed beneficiaries. So please stop trying to pretend they did it in the national interest.
cassowary wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:20 am
Lower taxes will generate economic growth and jobs. It is in the national interest.
Stated as a stock mantra from blind dogmatic faith. These tax cuts are not intended to stimulate economic growth but to assist a bunch of unworthy politicians to continue their political careers beyond 2018.

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cassowary
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Re: Tax plan raises taxes on liberal states and lowers them for the rest.

Post by cassowary » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:55 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:20 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:09 am
In any case, I don't believe that the Republicans in Congress care a shit about the budget deficit. What they would be more concerned about is something much closer to home.
cassowary wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:16 pm
I think they do. But anybody wanting to cut the deficit must cut spending. That is political suicide. What must be done is to cut down on the entitlements - Medicaid, Social Security and Unemployment benefits.
Oh sure, hit the little guys and drive them into utter destitution. Why not cut down on the entitlements of multi-billionaire donors to the Republican Party? Your pious sanctimony offends! As Steve Foerster has testified (above) nobody powerful in Washington cares less about the budget deficit: they only pretend to. It is known as paying lip service to a worthy ideal.
The little guys are the majority. As Aristotle said, it is the little guy who has the power because they are the majority. So to appease them, the rich guys are over taxed. The top 1% pay 38% of income taxes.

The bottom 50% pay almost nothing. Money flows to those with power from those without power. The little guy, collectively, has more power. This chart says it all:

Image

Even though they squeeze the top 10% (the rich), it is not enough for them. The wealth redistribution requires government debt to finance. Enough is enough. Roll back the welfare state before the country goes broke.

Every citizen should be treated equally. Why should some be taxed higher than others? I think a flat income tax rate for everybody is fair. Scrap all entitlements and replace it with a guaranteed income for everybody. In that way everybody is treated equally. The same law must apply to all.

Same tax rate and same monthly checque (check) for everybody.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Tax plan raises taxes on liberal states and lowers them for the rest.

Post by SteveFoerster » Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:00 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 7:47 pm
Steve, I want to thank you for the pains you have taken in your reply. Little for me to disagree with and being there you have the tactical advantage of being more directly "tuned in" to the subject matter under discussion. But allow me to chew the fat a little over this:
No, we don't seem to be terribly far apart on this. :)
"Wealthier as a result of greater population density" you say? I humbly suggest the exact opposite is true and the population density is in response to the wealth routinely generated.
Enh, let's just call it a positive feedback loop.
Hawaii, Maryland? No doubt that the fiscal spinoff from the Pearl Harbour naval base would be important for the Hawaii regional economy whilst Maryland likewise gets a spin-off from the fact that a lot of Federal agencies and facilities would be based there as spill-over from (otherwise overcrowded) Washington DC. But when all is said and done I believe that you are hair splitting here Steve. The vast majority of (so called) blue states, especially the big, highly urbanised ones, would generate their wealth predominantly through private enterprise endeavour to the point where Federal spending would be relatively insignificant contributor to the whole.
I'm not splitting hairs, since I wasn't suggesting that concentrated federal spending in a few smaller blue states is the main reason blue states as a whole are wealthier on average. I was merely adding a point that I thought would be of interest.
By the way: you realise that the sacred cow of US politics, farm subsidies, have long represented a tax on the blue states in order to prop up the regional economies of the red ones.
Yes, but only sort of. The red states are more agricultural, to be sure, but it's not exactly Ma and Pa Kettle typically getting the benefits of those subsidies, it's giant agricorps that may or may not be headquartered in the states where they actually do the growing.
How can anyone sincere in his belief in the efficacy of a market forces based economy tolerate that? No sign in the current tax package of any urge to reform that.
As you can imagine, I oppose such subsidies, doubly so in that meat and dairy subsidies are anti-environmental. But Congressional Republicans (with a few exceptions, like Justin Amash) might pay lip services to free markets but neither really understand them nor care.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
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Milo
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Re: Tax plan raises taxes on liberal states and lowers them for the rest.

Post by Milo » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:07 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:16 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:01 pm
As a matter of fact it is greatly disputed whether this will cut taxes for anyone except the rich and many think it will create huge deficits.

So, again, likely not even wrong.
It depends on the growth rate. The higher the growth, the lower the deficit. Nobody knows how the economy will be doing in 5 to 10 years time. But Trump's policies of lower taxes, deregulation, fossil fuel promotion will boost growth.
Reagan increased deficits exponentially and there was economic growth, Clinton lowered them and there was economic growth. I don't see what evidence you have to support what you claim.

neverfail
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Re: Tax plan raises taxes on liberal states and lowers them for the rest.

Post by neverfail » Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:33 pm

Milo wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:07 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:16 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:01 pm
As a matter of fact it is greatly disputed whether this will cut taxes for anyone except the rich and many think it will create huge deficits.

So, again, likely not even wrong.
It depends on the growth rate. The higher the growth, the lower the deficit. Nobody knows how the economy will be doing in 5 to 10 years time. But Trump's policies of lower taxes, deregulation, fossil fuel promotion will boost growth.
Reagan increased deficits exponentially and there was economic growth, Clinton lowered them and there was economic growth. I don't see what evidence you have to support what you claim.
Evidence counts for nothing when you are affirming verities of belief.

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Milo
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Re: Tax plan raises taxes on liberal states and lowers them for the rest.

Post by Milo » Wed Dec 13, 2017 9:45 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:33 pm
Milo wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:07 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:16 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:01 pm
As a matter of fact it is greatly disputed whether this will cut taxes for anyone except the rich and many think it will create huge deficits.

So, again, likely not even wrong.
It depends on the growth rate. The higher the growth, the lower the deficit. Nobody knows how the economy will be doing in 5 to 10 years time. But Trump's policies of lower taxes, deregulation, fossil fuel promotion will boost growth.
Reagan increased deficits exponentially and there was economic growth, Clinton lowered them and there was economic growth. I don't see what evidence you have to support what you claim.
Evidence counts for nothing when you are affirming verities of belief.
Cass is a true believer!

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cassowary
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Re: Tax plan raises taxes on liberal states and lowers them for the rest.

Post by cassowary » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:41 am

Milo wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 6:07 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2017 2:16 am
Milo wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 12:01 pm
As a matter of fact it is greatly disputed whether this will cut taxes for anyone except the rich and many think it will create huge deficits.

So, again, likely not even wrong.
It depends on the growth rate. The higher the growth, the lower the deficit. Nobody knows how the economy will be doing in 5 to 10 years time. But Trump's policies of lower taxes, deregulation, fossil fuel promotion will boost growth.
Reagan increased deficits exponentially and there was economic growth, Clinton lowered them and there was economic growth. I don't see what evidence you have to support what you claim.
Reagan increased military spending to defeat the USSR - a worthy cause that unfortunately increased budget deficits. And he got spectacular economic growth. Thanks to Reagan's victory in the Cold War, Clinton can cut military spending, thus giving rise to surpluses. Clinton got lucky.

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