Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

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Milo
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by Milo » Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:01 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:43 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:36 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:01 am
neverfail - What's with this incessant stream of attacks on Singapore? Could it be based on:

1. A belief that Singapore treats its migrant workers so badly vs international norms that it needs to be chastised?

2. A belief that Singaporeans are so repressed by their government that they live downtrodden lives compared to other nations?

3. A belief that the Singapore government would be more successful if it did as you wish?

4. Or, could it be (as I suspect) that you resent the relative success of a predominately non-Caucasian commonwealth nation over that of yours and others?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

When they "play the man instead of playing the ball" I know that I have won the argument. Take note Jim!
Didn't know there was an argument. Seems pretty much straightforward. Folks envious of Singapore's successes are bereft of facts in support of their silly-assed commentaries.
Neither bereft nor silly-assed from where I sit. It's true that Singapore is a prosperous tyranny.

Nor do I envy their success as it is roughly equal to my own country's and will be greatly reduced once the Lee family has a feckless heir.

neverfail
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by neverfail » Sun Dec 10, 2017 1:58 am

Milo wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:01 pm

Neither bereft nor silly-assed from where I sit. It's true that Singapore is a prosperous tyranny.

Nor do I envy their success as it is roughly equal to my own country's and will be greatly reduced once the Lee family has a feckless heir.
I could not have put it better myself Milo.

Envy their success? I am actually relieved that a few of our Asian neighbours to our north have acheived living standards that approximately match ours. But envy them? When I contemplate the price they have paid up their for their prosperity and continue to pay for it, I have absolutely no reason to envy them.

neverfail
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Re: why has not Singapore followed Taiwan's example?

Post by neverfail » Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:38 pm

https://web.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/papers/taiwan.pdf

How Democratic Is Taiwan?

(Comment): Following the example of this Sinosphere template would spare Singapore the embarrassment of having to pay tribute to the round eyed barbarian democracies of Western civilisation. :)

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cassowary
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Foreign workers happy to be working here

Post by cassowary » Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:37 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:20 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:23 pm

Our good track record of 44 years without a riot was broken in 2013 when low wage foreign workers (the kind that Jolovan Wham champions) rioted.
Since they have no rights in Singapore and no channels to the authorities by which to lodge their complaints; when their accumulated anger gets triggered off by some incident like that bus accident, then is there anything to restrain their anger from finding expression through violence?

None that I can see. That is the lesson that repressive regimes never seem to learn.

Even the USSR had a very good record of nil riots over any given 44 year period of its existence for similar reasons.
Neverfail,

What a lot of nonsense. Singapore has reasonably good workers' rights. According to the ITUC (Internationa Trade Union Confederation), Singapore is in category 3 for workers' rights. So is your Australia. Those foreign workers who rioted were Indians, predominantly from the province of Tamil Nadu.

They are happy to be working in Singapore. In fact, when LKY died, they were genuinely sad and treated him like a god.

Tamil Nadu families remember 'Mahatma Lee' who paved way out of poverty.
... The Times of India

Excerpt from link:
The world may acknowledge Lee Kuan Yew as a pioneering nation-builder, a symbol of Asian resurgence, and an expert in transformational governance. For Tamils, Lee, though Chinese, was friend and bulwark - a man who provided an opportunity to many in rural Tamil Nadu to escape poverty . As soon as news of his death broke on Monday , condolence banners and posters came up in villages across the state. One banner said: "Lee is like the Himalayas. He is a tall leader who eradicated poverty from many Tamil families. Our deepest condolences." Another said: "He is the real protector of Singapore.He considered all Tamils his children."

Lee has a special place in Thanjavur delta where many homes in Paravakottai, Ullikottai and Kooppachikottai in Mannargudi taluk of Tiruvarur district have sent their youths to earn a livelihood in Singapore. "At least one person in every family here is either working in Singapore or has worked there. This has helped entire families to build a better life.We were praying for his recovery when we heard he had been admitted to a hospital. He was another Mahatma for us," says Bagya of Paravakottai. His village wore a look of mourning reminiscent of the time when MGR died.
The South Indian towns are planning a museum, statue and museum to honor LKY. This is because they are grateful for having the chance to work in Singapore and improve their lives.

Excerpt from link:
Many families, who once considered three meals a day a luxury, now live comfortably on money sent back by family members working in Singapore. They have swopped thatched-roof homes for double-storey residences.
The thing is that these foreign workers came voluntarily. If they are not happy here, they can always leave. But they keep coming willingly. Tihs is far cry from Solzehnitsyn's gulag where political prisoners are turned into slaves. So much for workers' rights. This can only happen in a Socialist dictatorship. So much for your comparison of Wham with Solzhenitsyn.

neverfail
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by neverfail » Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:56 am

Very well cassowary. I will concede here that I may not have known all of the relevant facts in this case. Thanks for informing me.

I do know that even though these people did not have to come to Singapore and did so in their own best interests, as guest workers they do not have the same status as Singapore citizens. They are not even second class citizens; only temporary residents valued only for the work they do. How many ever have the possibility of becoming naturalised citizens of Singapore?

The fact that the rioters were Tamils tells me nothing (we have no shortage of Tamil immigrant-settlers here in Australia; so I know the type). A street accident can happen to anyone anywhere. So why should that accidental death of a Tamil pedestrian have triggered off a riot?

P.S. I compared Wham to Solzhenitsyn only in the sense that Wham, like Solzhenitsyn in his time and country, keeps on pushing back against the limits imposed on his freedom of political self-expression by a repressive state that treats politics as the monopoly of a ruling party that has arguably been entrenched in power for far too long unchallenged and has likely become smug, arrogant and insensitive over the years as a consequence. The fact that the PAP does not promote the same party line as the Communist Party of the old USSR is beside the point. The fact that Wham (and other Singapore dissidents, needs to employ the same cautious tactics as Solzhenitsyn speaks for itself.

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cassowary
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by cassowary » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:28 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:56 am
Very well cassowary. I will concede here that I may not have known all of the relevant facts in this case. Thanks for informing me.
Thank you Neverfail. You have always been a gentleman and pleasant to talk to.
I do know that even though these people did not have to come to Singapore and did so in their own best interests, as guest workers they do not have the same status as Singapore citizens. They are not even second class citizens; only temporary residents valued only for the work they do. How many ever have the possibility of becoming naturalised citizens of Singapore?
.

That is true. They are just temporary workers who want to return home once they have enough money. Some bought land to farm with their savings. Others started small businesses.
The fact that the rioters were Tamils tells me nothing (we have no shortage of Tamil immigrant-settlers here in Australia; so I know the type). A street accident can happen to anyone anywhere. So why should that accidental death of a Tamil pedestrian have triggered off a riot?
According to press reports, they were drunk. That's all. They first attacked the bus that knocked down their friend. When the driver drove off in panic, they attacked other cars out of frustration. Our police were stunned and did not know what to do. This is the first time they encountered a riot in more than 40 years.
P.S. I compared Wham to Solzhenitsyn only in the sense that Wham, like Solzhenitsyn in his time and country, keeps on pushing back against the limits imposed on his freedom of political self-expression by a repressive state that treats politics as the monopoly of a ruling party that has arguably been entrenched in power for far too long unchallenged and has likely become smug, arrogant and insensitive over the years as a consequence. The fact that the PAP does not promote the same party line as the Communist Party of the old USSR is beside the point. The fact that Wham (and other Singapore dissidents, needs to employ the same cautious tactics as Solzhenitsyn speaks for itself.
The labor employed in the gulag that Solzhenitsyn stayed in were slave labour. The foreign workers in Singapore came with their own accord to better their lives. Singapore might have been authoritarian in LKY's time but today it is classified by EIU as a democracy albeit a flawed one.

The USSR that Solzhenitsyn criticized was a dictatorship. No elections in the USSR and no opposition party. Singapore has elections and opposition party in Parliament. Wham was arrested not for demonstrating but not doing it in the right place which is Hong Lim Park. No demonstrations were allowed in the USSR.

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Milo
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by Milo » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:01 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:28 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 12:56 am
Very well cassowary. I will concede here that I may not have known all of the relevant facts in this case. Thanks for informing me.
Thank you Neverfail. You have always been a gentleman and pleasant to talk to.
I do know that even though these people did not have to come to Singapore and did so in their own best interests, as guest workers they do not have the same status as Singapore citizens. They are not even second class citizens; only temporary residents valued only for the work they do. How many ever have the possibility of becoming naturalised citizens of Singapore?
.

That is true. They are just temporary workers who want to return home once they have enough money. Some bought land to farm with their savings. Others started small businesses.
The fact that the rioters were Tamils tells me nothing (we have no shortage of Tamil immigrant-settlers here in Australia; so I know the type). A street accident can happen to anyone anywhere. So why should that accidental death of a Tamil pedestrian have triggered off a riot?
According to press reports, they were drunk. That's all. They first attacked the bus that knocked down their friend. When the driver drove off in panic, they attacked other cars out of frustration. Our police were stunned and did not know what to do. This is the first time they encountered a riot in more than 40 years.
P.S. I compared Wham to Solzhenitsyn only in the sense that Wham, like Solzhenitsyn in his time and country, keeps on pushing back against the limits imposed on his freedom of political self-expression by a repressive state that treats politics as the monopoly of a ruling party that has arguably been entrenched in power for far too long unchallenged and has likely become smug, arrogant and insensitive over the years as a consequence. The fact that the PAP does not promote the same party line as the Communist Party of the old USSR is beside the point. The fact that Wham (and other Singapore dissidents, needs to employ the same cautious tactics as Solzhenitsyn speaks for itself.
The labor employed in the gulag that Solzhenitsyn stayed in were slave labour. The foreign workers in Singapore came with their own accord to better their lives. Singapore might have been authoritarian in LKY's time but today it is classified by EIU as a democracy albeit a flawed one.

The USSR that Solzhenitsyn criticized was a dictatorship. No elections in the USSR and no opposition party. Singapore has elections and opposition party in Parliament. Wham was arrested not for demonstrating but not doing it in the right place which is Hong Lim Park. No demonstrations were allowed in the USSR.
There were lots of demonstrations allowed in the USSR.


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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:06 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:01 am
Or, could it be (as I suspect) that you resent the relative success of a predominately non-Caucasian commonwealth nation over that of yours and others?
Jesus, what a lazy ad hominem that was....
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
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neverfail
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by neverfail » Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:47 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:28 am

That is true. They are just temporary workers who want to return home once they have enough money. Some bought land to farm with their savings. Others started small businesses.
Want to return home? Singapore offers them no other choice.
cassowary wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:28 am
According to press reports, they were drunk. That's all. They first attacked the bus that knocked down their friend. When the driver drove off in panic, they attacked other cars out of frustration. Our police were stunned and did not know what to do. This is the first time they encountered a riot in more than 40 years.
That makes sense!

cassowary wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:28 am
The labor employed in the gulag that Solzhenitsyn stayed in were slave labour. The foreign workers in Singapore came with their own accord to better their lives. Singapore might have been authoritarian in LKY's time but today it is classified by EIU as a democracy albeit a flawed one.

The USSR that Solzhenitsyn criticized was a dictatorship. No elections in the USSR and no opposition party. Singapore has elections and opposition party in Parliament. Wham was arrested not for demonstrating but not doing it in the right place which is Hong Lim Park. No demonstrations were allowed in the USSR.
Go down to Hong Lim Park and waste your time and energy (figuratively) hitting your head against a brick wall? Mr Wham's tactics grabbed the attention of the powers-that-be and hopefully of the Singapore public as well- the point of the exercise. The fact that Solzhenitsyn in his day had the more formidable opponent after he was released from the Gulag is beside the point.

News to me that Singapore has an organised party of Opposition. Thanks for the info Cass. I know it takes time for any untested party of Opposition to build up the credentials of an alternative government; but as far as I am concerned Singapore will only fully graduate into the ranks of the democracies once Singapore undergoes a peaceful change of government via the ballot box.

Cheers!

Jim the Moron
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:29 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:06 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:01 am
Or, could it be (as I suspect) that you resent the relative success of a predominately non-Caucasian commonwealth nation over that of yours and others?
Jesus, what a lazy ad hominem that was....
I'm open to any other explanation for seeing so many threads here degenerate into anti-Singapore screeds.

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