Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Discussion of current events
User avatar
Milo
Posts: 1007
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by Milo » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:50 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:29 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:06 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:01 am
Or, could it be (as I suspect) that you resent the relative success of a predominately non-Caucasian commonwealth nation over that of yours and others?
Jesus, what a lazy ad hominem that was....
I'm open to any other explanation for seeing so many threads here degenerate into anti-Singapore screeds.
What screeds are those?

neverfail
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by neverfail » Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:46 am

Jim, I recall threads you initiated in the past criticizing things you saw wrong with Thailand. Were these anti-Thailand "screeds"?

Jim the Moron
Posts: 716
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by Jim the Moron » Tue Dec 12, 2017 3:30 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 2:46 am
Jim, I recall threads you initiated in the past criticizing things you saw wrong with Thailand. Were these anti-Thailand "screeds"?
You have a good memory, neverfail. I commented (feel free to refer to those as "screeds") on the grossly corrupt elitist (military/royalist) looting of Thailand's resources. Had Thailand had enlightened leadership akin to Singapore's, working-class Thais would have had their voices heard, and some share of the nation's prosperity. But, each time a political movement sought to achieve this, a military coup obtained.

User avatar
SteveFoerster
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:17 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA and Dominica, West Indies
Contact:

Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:02 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 2:29 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 11:06 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:01 am
Or, could it be (as I suspect) that you resent the relative success of a predominately non-Caucasian commonwealth nation over that of yours and others?
Jesus, what a lazy ad hominem that was....
I'm open to any other explanation for seeing so many threads here degenerate into anti-Singapore screeds.
It's sufficient to take Singapore-sceptics at their word, that they oppose illiberal restrictions on speech, assembly, and political participation.

If anyone has anything to "fear" from Singapore, it's those who insist that political freedom is a prerequisite for economic freedom. Clearly it isn't, as Singapore and many of the Gulf States demonstrate.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

neverfail
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by neverfail » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:15 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2017 8:02 am

If anyone has anything to "fear" from Singapore, it's those who insist that political freedom is a prerequisite for economic freedom. Clearly it isn't, as Singapore and many of the Gulf States demonstrate.
Of course not. You only need to look at the Peoples Republic of China to be aware of that. But whoever made the silly suggestion that the desirability of political freedoms has anything to do with the rate of GDP growth?

User avatar
cassowary
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by cassowary » Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:46 am

Its the other way around. Economic freedom will lead to political freedom. In the US, as in Britain, the right to vote was initially given to property owners. But it slowly extended to everybody.

neverfail
Posts: 1686
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by neverfail » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:21 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 14, 2017 7:46 am
Its the other way around. Economic freedom will lead to political freedom. In the US, as in Britain, the right to vote was initially given to property owners. But it slowly extended to everybody.
Yes, even in my country our first colonial parliaments were elected according to a property qualification rule as to who can vote. But the extension of the vote to firstly an all male voter entitlement then a generation later to woman's right to vote still would not have happened had not ordinary people campaigned for it. It did not happen as mechanistically as your posts seem to suggest.

It happened in the Anglo West but does this mean that it is destined to repeat on mainland China? I have reason to think not. China is a very ancient civilisation set in its ways and one like me the product of a Western upbringing still finds very hard to comprehend and appreciate. Indeed, I do not think that you realise just how little the Communist Party power structure of China owes to Marx, Engels and Lenin and how closely it resembles one of China's Imperial state entities from days of yore.

The Communist Party one-party state structure of mainland China differs from the Imperial dynasties of old in one significant way however. Whereas being Emperor of China was normally an hereditary occupation, the Chinese Communist Party operates as a meritocracy that allows only the most fiercely competitive players to get to the top and stay there for a time.

An new kind of imperial dynasty still young and still on the rise. A power structure that has not been around long enough to succumb to the various corruptions that have brought every successive Chinese imperial state of the past undone.

Though I know that you abhor socialism in all of its forms and manifestations Cassowary, there is something about your "A always proceeds from B" mechanistic sort of logic that causes me to recall an old fashioned Communist idealogue's reliance on what they called the dialectic (which can never be wrong because, as Marx said, it is scientific) for guidance in all things.

User avatar
cassowary
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by cassowary » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:42 am

Thanks for the reply Neverfail. You are right that China is different. The credit belongs to Confucius. His teachings were meant to prop up the feudal order. This is not conducive for democracy. However, Confucious is seen to be a man, not God. He was not even a Prophet, as in the case of Mohammed.

So change is possible. Other Confucian societies have become democracies - Japan, Taiwan, S Korea and Singapore. China will become a democracy some day provided western democracies don't fail. There is a systemic problem in democracy that resulted in nearly all western democracies getting into debt.

If they end up like Venezuela and Greece, the Chinese will conclude that one party rule is better.

User avatar
SteveFoerster
Posts: 1161
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:17 pm
Location: Northern Virginia, USA and Dominica, West Indies
Contact:

Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:58 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:42 am
There is a systemic problem in democracy that resulted in nearly all western democracies getting into debt.
That's more a consequence of fiat monetary policy than democracy.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

User avatar
cassowary
Posts: 1605
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by cassowary » Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:02 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:58 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:42 am
There is a systemic problem in democracy that resulted in nearly all western democracies getting into debt.
That's more a consequence of fiat monetary policy than democracy.
In the current regime of fiat money democracies have proven incapable of fiscal discipline.

So, should we go back to the gold standard?

Post Reply