Now Lombardy!

Discussion of current events
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cassowary
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Re: Now Lombardy!

Post by cassowary » Wed Oct 25, 2017 12:02 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:30 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 12:55 pm
Then how come the mafiasos are not so many in the north? They were just as Roman.
Weren't they Ostrogoths?
Yes, they were and Lombards too who came later.

neverfail
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Re: Now Lombardy!

Post by neverfail » Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:23 pm

cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:08 am

Very good comment Neverfail. Hahaha. I guess the northerners are tired of the problems the southerners are giving them. Note that the south was once controlled by the Muslims. Maybe they left some aspects of their culture behind.
Thanks for your observation Cass. Might I illuminate it further?
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Italy is a far more complex place than most non-Italian foreigners give it credit for.

Almost 20 years ago when we were shopping for tiles to adorn our new home, my wife and I walked into a tile import business owned by an entrepreneurial Italian immigrant and his wife. I knew about these people from my previous work - the man was highly esteemed as a builder for his integrity and the tile import business was a profitable sideline. Almost as soon as we walked into his shop his wife asked me whether I might be of Scottish immigrant ancestry. I responded, "Irish"!

( :) Six of one and half a dozen of the other - both nationalities are Celtic.)

The woman then went on to remark "I thought you must have Celtic ancestry. You see, we are Celtic Italians. When somebody with Celtic bloodlines walks into our ship, we can usually sense it."

This is the point a lot of foreigners (like us) miss. Italy north of the Rubicon River was originally defined by the Romans as part of Gaul - their name for the vast regions of western and central Europe then occupied by tribes belonging the the Celtic (or Gaelic - Gaullish?) civilisation - Rome's historic nemesis as much as Carthage. Celtic civilisation relates more closely to Germanic-Nordic than to Latin.
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Every town of any size and significance in the south of Italy was originally founded by Greek colonists. The continental north was originally Celtic. Wedged in between the two was the Etruscan civilisation of mid Italy. The province of Tuscany ( Toscana in Italian) where it was based is a latter-day abbreviation of Etruscan.

The village republic of Rome, located on the frontier between the Etruscans and the colonial Greeks was apparently nurtured it its formative centuries by its close proximity to both.
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As another Italian immigrant friend also once pointed out to me: following the collapse of the western Roman Empire and extending even into the 20th century; northern Italy was repeated invaded over the centuries from north of the Alps. By comparison, the south enjoyed an almost sheltered existence. "Not a lot of people realise (my friend pointed out) that when the Allied armies landed there in 1943, that was the first time since the Normans invaded almost 1000 years earlier that the south had been disturbed by foreign invasion".

My friend hinted that he believed that the regular "shakeups" suffered by the North of italy had the redeeming effect of putting them and their version of Italian civilisation on their toes; whereas the long reign of peace and security enjoyed by the south permitted this part of italy to ossify and vegetate.

Straight from the horse's mouth?

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cassowary
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Re: Now Lombardy!

Post by cassowary » Thu Oct 26, 2017 12:37 am

That was very interesting stuff Neverfail. I always enjoy reading your writings. It is illuminating.

But before the Normans came, the Arabs were in Southern Italy - mainly Sicily. And the Muslims even managed to gain a toehold in the southern parts of peninsula Italy. They raided as far as Rome.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History ... hern_Italy.

The mafia is strongest in Sicily, the part of Italy that was ruled longest by the Muslims. Coincidence?

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Sertorio
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Re: Now Lombardy!

Post by Sertorio » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:46 am

We shouldn't overestimate ethnic origins and their relevance. A factor which I think is - on the long term - a lot more relevant than ethnic origin, is climate. Portugal - the ancestors of whose inhabitants are as diverse as Celtic, Phoenician, Roman, Germanic, Jewish and Moorish - has a pretty homogeneous population and we cannot find any behavioural differences based on those remote origins. The warm climate and food, for instance, have shaped our way of life a lot more than any ethnic origins. And that is still visible today. I have met foreigners in Portugal - from northern Europe - who have lived for quite some time in Portugal, and who have acquired many of our better and not so good traits. They have become "latinized" and readily became part of our society. Trying to explain differences between southern and northern Italians based on ethnic origins, is a mistake. The environmental differences between the two regions have, in the course of the centuries, created two different cultures. A Sicilian in Milan will end up performing in a similar manner to a native, and a Milanese in Sicily will soon adapt to the local ways. For the benefit of Cassowary I assure him that second generation Chinese in Portugal are a lot more Portuguese than Chinese, and they clearly do not make a point of socializing - and marrying - other Chinese.

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cassowary
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Re: Now Lombardy!

Post by cassowary » Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:28 am

Sertorio,

It is good that all groups including the Chinese assimilate into Portuguese culture. But I believe you will find one exception - Muslims. From experience, I can tell you they are not going to assimilate.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Now Lombardy!

Post by SteveFoerster » Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:07 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:28 am
It is good that all groups including the Chinese assimilate into Portuguese culture. But I believe you will find one exception - Muslims. From experience, I can tell you they are not going to assimilate.
I know you keep insisting on that, but they do in North America. Seriously. And I literally don't even have to go further than next door for an example: my Egyptian neighbour came to the U.S. when she was four, and now, thirty years later, she can drink me under the table, and she has a child by an American guy who she didn't even marry. And she's not an edge case.
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cassowary
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Re: Now Lombardy!

Post by cassowary » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:18 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 11:07 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 9:28 am
It is good that all groups including the Chinese assimilate into Portuguese culture. But I believe you will find one exception - Muslims. From experience, I can tell you they are not going to assimilate.
I know you keep insisting on that, but they do in North America. Seriously. And I literally don't even have to go further than next door for an example: my Egyptian neighbour came to the U.S. when she was four, and now, thirty years later, she can drink me under the table, and she has a child by an American guy who she didn't even marry. And she's not an edge case.
You can't judge by one or two Muslims you meet. Find out more about Islam, my friend.

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cassowary
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Re: Now Lombardy!

Post by cassowary » Thu Oct 26, 2017 1:42 pm

London mayor says immigrants should not have to assimilate.

https://www.voanews.com/a/on-trip-to-us ... 11670.html.

I hope US Muslims don't think like him.

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cassowary
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Apparently this Muslim agrees with Sadiq Khan

Post by cassowary » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:01 pm

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government ... a-sarsour/.

Linda Sarsour said Muslims must not assimilate into US society.

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cassowary
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Re: Now Lombardy!

Post by cassowary » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:07 pm

I think as long as their population is small, assimilation is high. For the moment, US Muslims won't give too much trouble other than the occasional terrorist attacks.

As long as they are not religious, assimilation is high. But there is something in Islam that deters assimilation. The more numerous and the more religious, the less they will assimilate.

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