Now Lombardy!

Discussion of current events
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Sertorio
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Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Now Lombardy!

Post by Sertorio » Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:26 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:51 pm

Admittedly, there was a lot of power politics involved but a few centuries ago Iberia was a hotbed of official intolerance. Portugal expelled its Jews...
We diid not. We only expelled those who refused to convert to the Christian faith, a very small minority. I am a descendant of those Jews who decided to stay.
neverfail wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:51 pm

The fact that Iberia is today more tolerant is, I speculate, more likely local reflection of the fact that the Anglo-Saxon democracies are now the leading Global influence on the region :) . Iberia now has an image to maintain.
Good grief!...If our tolerance was copied from the Anglo-Saxons we would be a rather intolerant people...

We are tolerant because we have a very weak ethnic or religious sense of identity. We are an incredible mix of different peoples, and the presumably expelled Jews helped most of us not to take our Catholicism too seriously...

neverfail
Posts: 1438
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: the same intolerance of human diversity, sertorio.

Post by neverfail » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:10 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:26 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:51 pm

Admittedly, there was a lot of power politics involved but a few centuries ago Iberia was a hotbed of official intolerance. Portugal expelled its Jews...
We diid not. We only expelled those who refused to convert to the Christian faith, a very small minority. I am a descendant of those Jews who decided to stay.
We? Well, think about this Sertorio.

The Jews who left were presumably the ones who were willing to personally make sacrifices for the sake of being true to their faith (to themselves). The ones who converted were presumably the sort of conformists who, in any given group, will always go along with the crowd for the sake of the fleeting advantages it gives them.

Of the two I know which would have had the greater integrity.

neverfail
Posts: 1438
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: Now Lombardy!

Post by neverfail » Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:22 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:26 pm

We are tolerant because we have a very weak ethnic or religious sense of identity. We are an incredible mix of different peoples, and the presumably expelled Jews helped most of us not to take our Catholicism too seriously...
I hope not Sertorio. People with a very weak ethnic or religious sense of identity tend to be people who know not who and what they are. People like that have historically all too easily been moved by agitators or manipulated by rulers.

Tolerance should not be confused with a nonchalant sort of apathy.

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Sertorio
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Re: Now Lombardy!

Post by Sertorio » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:32 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:22 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:26 pm

We are tolerant because we have a very weak ethnic or religious sense of identity. We are an incredible mix of different peoples, and the presumably expelled Jews helped most of us not to take our Catholicism too seriously...
I hope not Sertorio. People with a very weak ethnic or religious sense of identity tend to be people who know not who and what they are. People like that have historically all too easily been moved by agitators or manipulated by rulers.

Tolerance should not be confused with a nonchalant sort of apathy.
We, in Portugal, have a very strong sense of identity, but it just isn't based on either ethnicity or religion. Because of that, our tolerance is based on our not caring a damn about people's ethnic background and people's religious beliefs, or sexual preferences. Which makes us stronger, not more vulnerable as you seem to think. On what then is our sense of identity based? On having been a community for nearly one thousand years, sharing a common culture and, most of all, a comon language. And that is so powerful that foreigners throughout the ages have easily been assimilated. Which is easier because we only ask from them two things: wanting to be part of our community and speaking Portuguese. They end up by contributing also to an enrichment of our culture, but without ever becoming an abcess in our community. For instance, Romanian and Ukrainian immigrants have brought with them their Orthodox faith, without ever coming into conflict with the local Catholic majority. In fact, the churches they use have often been no longer in use Catholic temples put at their disposal by the Catholic Church.

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Sertorio
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Re: the same intolerance of human diversity, sertorio.

Post by Sertorio » Mon Oct 30, 2017 5:36 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 30, 2017 4:10 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 5:26 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Oct 29, 2017 4:51 pm

Admittedly, there was a lot of power politics involved but a few centuries ago Iberia was a hotbed of official intolerance. Portugal expelled its Jews...
We diid not. We only expelled those who refused to convert to the Christian faith, a very small minority. I am a descendant of those Jews who decided to stay.
We? Well, think about this Sertorio.

The Jews who left were presumably the ones who were willing to personally make sacrifices for the sake of being true to their faith (to themselves). The ones who converted were presumably the sort of conformists who, in any given group, will always go along with the crowd for the sake of the fleeting advantages it gives them.

Of the two I know which would have had the greater integrity.
Those "conformists" may have represented as much as 80% of the whole Jewish community, so you shouldn't see them as a despicable marginal group. They were truly representative of the whole.

Jim the Moron
Posts: 641
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: Now Lombardy!

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:27 pm

". . . foreigners throughout the ages have easily been assimilated. Which is easier because we only ask from them two things: wanting to be part of our community and speaking Portuguese." (Sertorio)
Would that similar sentiments be universal regarding all immigrants, everywhere.


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