ISIS on the run under Trump

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Doc
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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by Doc » Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:52 am

Nf and Cass,

The US has been in Afghanistan for 16 years. Mostly Americans lose interest in Americans coming home in body bags. I remember back in 2003 or 2004 someone posting a study in another forum that Americans would turn against the war when something like 4700 Americans died in Iraq. That turned out to be true. The majority of Americans turned against the war around the time that many had died. That, not the propaganda, is what the majority of Americans were watching.
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

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Milo
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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by Milo » Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:15 pm

cassowary wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:37 am
That is true Neverfail. Americans have patience for about 10 years. However oBUMa might have left 30,000 troops behind to help the Iraqis against a new threat ~ the ideology of Islamism just as they left behind troops in Germany to guard against another totalitarian ideology - Socialism.

His failure to do so comes from his rose tinted vision of Islam and his under estimation of ISIS which he dismissed as the Junior Varsity Team. These were failures of judgement.
How do troops fight an ideology?

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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by cassowary » Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:32 am

Milo wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:15 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:37 am
That is true Neverfail. Americans have patience for about 10 years. However oBUMa might have left 30,000 troops behind to help the Iraqis against a new threat ~ the ideology of Islamism just as they left behind troops in Germany to guard against another totalitarian ideology - Socialism.

His failure to do so comes from his rose tinted vision of Islam and his under estimation of ISIS which he dismissed as the Junior Varsity Team. These were failures of judgement.
How do troops fight an ideology?
Very good question, Milo. I turn to history as a guide. ISIS and similar groups are following a religious ideology. Let's see how the Romans handled it. Emperor Heraclius faced a powerful Persian army that conquered the Levant. The foundation of their Persian empire was Zorastrianism. Instead of meeting the powerful army head on, he invaded Persia through Armenia and destroyed their sacred fire temples. This destroyed their confidence. It meant their faith was false. It shook their empire. Their soldiers lost the will to fight. He recovered the Levant for Constantinople.

Prove Islam false and the 1,400 year war will end.

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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by neverfail » Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:43 am

cassowary wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:37 am

His failure to do so comes from his rose tinted vision of Islam and his under estimation of ISIS which he dismissed as the Junior Varsity Team. These were failures of judgement.
Are you sure that Obama had a free choice about whether to leave troops behind in Iraq or complete the withdrawal?

The presumption that an incumbent POTUS is free to do whatever he wants without let or hinderance is ludicrous. The President might be the commander-in-chief of the armed forces but he still cannot send them abroad without congressional approval and support.
..............................................................................................................................

Furthermore, I have already discussed (above) the contribution made by the Maliki government in Iraq made in destabilising the country; giving Iraqi Sunni's reason to turn to extremist groups like ISIS for salvation from a government hostile to their very existence. Would US interests have been served by making American troops an unwitting accomplice in that travesty against the Sunnis? Or is your sole interest in slagging the reputation of a US former president you never approved of using any pretext at hand?

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Milo
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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by Milo » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:06 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:32 am
Milo wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:15 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:37 am
That is true Neverfail. Americans have patience for about 10 years. However oBUMa might have left 30,000 troops behind to help the Iraqis against a new threat ~ the ideology of Islamism just as they left behind troops in Germany to guard against another totalitarian ideology - Socialism.

His failure to do so comes from his rose tinted vision of Islam and his under estimation of ISIS which he dismissed as the Junior Varsity Team. These were failures of judgement.
How do troops fight an ideology?
Very good question, Milo. I turn to history as a guide. ISIS and similar groups are following a religious ideology. Let's see how the Romans handled it. Emperor Heraclius faced a powerful Persian army that conquered the Levant. The foundation of their Persian empire was Zorastrianism. Instead of meeting the powerful army head on, he invaded Persia through Armenia and destroyed their sacred fire temples. This destroyed their confidence. It meant their faith was false. It shook their empire. Their soldiers lost the will to fight. He recovered the Levant for Constantinople.

Prove Islam false and the 1,400 year war will end.
Well American troops in the ME are neither capable of, nor inclined to, do that.

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cassowary
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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by cassowary » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:17 am

Islam claims that Mecca is protected by Allah and that the Ka'aba is indestructible. One cruise missile will disprove the faith.

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Milo
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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by Milo » Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:46 pm

cassowary wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:17 am
Islam claims that Mecca is protected by Allah and that the Ka'aba is indestructible. One cruise missile will disprove the faith.
So you think the troops should be pulled out.

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Re: religious beliefs can be surprisingly resilient.

Post by neverfail » Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:37 pm

70 years of unrelenting atheist propaganda against Christianity and all other forms of religious belief in the Soviet Union failed to disprove the mystery of the holy trinity. Christianity is currently undergoing a big revival within the Russian Federation.

Do you believe that it will be any easier proving to Muslims that Mohammad was really God's prophet?

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Milo
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Re: religious beliefs can be surprisingly resilient.

Post by Milo » Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:08 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:37 pm
70 years of unrelenting atheist propaganda against Christianity and all other forms of religious belief in the Soviet Union failed to disprove the mystery of the holy trinity. Christianity is currently undergoing a big revival within the Russian Federation.

Do you believe that it will be any easier proving to Muslims that Mohammad was really God's prophet?
Cass has a point I think: Islam is tied to territory and no place more so than Mecca.

I think a more effective move would be to carpet bomb Mecca with pig fat.

Butt either way, troops are a waste of resources, especially when you have such cheap alternatives. And when virtually all of the missions involve protecting Muslims who only want to kill or convert us, from other Muslims who feel exactly the same way! And the 'protecting strategic reserves of hydrocarbons' argument is wearing a bit thin at a $2 trillion or so price tag; that could buy a lot of solar panels!

But, of course, the enormous expense supports an enormous web of political patronage and jobs, most of which goes to otherwise unemployable ass clowns. As a matter of fact that sort of never ending boondoggle is pretty much what the ME economy itself, such that it is, consists of.

It would be very beneficial to leave entirely but I'm afraid I don't see that as politically feasible.

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Re: religious beliefs can be surprisingly resilient.

Post by Doc » Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:15 pm

Milo wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:08 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sun Oct 22, 2017 4:37 pm
70 years of unrelenting atheist propaganda against Christianity and all other forms of religious belief in the Soviet Union failed to disprove the mystery of the holy trinity. Christianity is currently undergoing a big revival within the Russian Federation.

Do you believe that it will be any easier proving to Muslims that Mohammad was really God's prophet?
Cass has a point I think: Islam is tied to territory and no place more so than Mecca.

I think a more effective move would be to carpet bomb Mecca with pig fat.

Butt either way, troops are a waste of resources, especially when you have such cheap alternatives. And when virtually all of the missions involve protecting Muslims who only want to kill or convert us, from other Muslims who feel exactly the same way! And the 'protecting strategic reserves of hydrocarbons' argument is wearing a bit thin at a $2 trillion or so price tag; that could buy a lot of solar panels!

But, of course, the enormous expense supports an enormous web of political patronage and jobs, most of which goes to otherwise unemployable ass clowns. As a matter of fact that sort of never ending boondoggle is pretty much what the ME economy itself, such that it is, consists of.

It would be very beneficial to leave entirely but I'm afraid I don't see that as politically feasible.

One thing I would add to consider

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/ ... 47635.html
Reported ISIS Member Says They Will Destroy The Kaaba In Mecca, 'Kill Those Who Worship Stones'
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

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