ISIS on the run under Trump

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Doc
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Re: for the USA: Iraq represents the elusive unwinnable peace.

Post by Doc » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:33 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:04 pm
Doc wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:34 pm

"Winning the war " How do you define that if it is not greatly reducing the violence with your chosen side still in power?
That was merely the calm before the coming storm doc.
2008 until the end of 2012. Heck of a long Calm before the storm.
Have you seriously taken a good look at the "chosen side" that the US actually brought to power in Iraq? I do not believe so!

"Winning the peace" that followed was beyond the capability of the US and had to be done by the Iraqi's themselves. I would have thought that my quote on the rise on Malaki representing the vengeful nationalism of his (majority) Shia constituents should have been enough to open your eyes. But apparently not!
It was won NF.


Doc wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:34 pm
AS I pointed out previously the war was over by the time GW Bush left office. Obama rekindled it.
The war rekindled under his watch but Obama did not cause it. The causes were (and continue to be) inherent in the unstable status quo left behind in Iraq.
Obama left the Iraqis hanging because he made a campaign promise to end the war in Iraq and win the war in Afghanistan. Obama is gone an dboth are still going on.
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

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SteveFoerster
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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:24 am

The U.S. hadn't won at the end of Bush's administration. If you have to leave a large occupying force in place to prevent everything you did from disintegrating, you haven't won yet, no matter how many self-fellating MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banners you hang up.

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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by cassowary » Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:07 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:24 am
The U.S. hadn't won at the end of Bush's administration. If you have to leave a large occupying force in place to prevent everything you did from disintegrating, you haven't won yet, no matter how many self-fellating MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banners you hang up.

Image
By that yardstick, the US and Allies have not won WWII yet. US troops are still in Germany and Japan.

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Doc
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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by Doc » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:53 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:24 am
The U.S. hadn't won at the end of Bush's administration. If you have to leave a large occupying force in place to prevent everything you did from disintegrating, you haven't won yet, no matter how many self-fellating MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banners you hang up.

Image
I agree. Most of the fighting was over However the win still had to be sealed after Bush was gone.Which was not done. BTW: The infamous "Mission Accomplished" banner was for the ship's mission not the war.
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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by Doc » Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:54 am

cassowary wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:07 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:24 am
The U.S. hadn't won at the end of Bush's administration. If you have to leave a large occupying force in place to prevent everything you did from disintegrating, you haven't won yet, no matter how many self-fellating MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banners you hang up.

Image
By that yardstick, the US and Allies have not won WWII yet. US troops are still in Germany and Japan.
Excellent point
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

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SteveFoerster
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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:32 pm

Doc wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:54 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:07 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:24 am
The U.S. hadn't won at the end of Bush's administration. If you have to leave a large occupying force in place to prevent everything you did from disintegrating, you haven't won yet, no matter how many self-fellating MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banners you hang up.

Image
By that yardstick, the US and Allies have not won WWII yet. US troops are still in Germany and Japan.
Excellent point
It's only an excellent point if you think that without U.S. troops in Germany and Japan that the Nazis and Imperialists would retake power in those countries. Otherwise it's a red herring.
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cassowary
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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by cassowary » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:04 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:32 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:54 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:07 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:24 am
The U.S. hadn't won at the end of Bush's administration. If you have to leave a large occupying force in place to prevent everything you did from disintegrating, you haven't won yet, no matter how many self-fellating MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banners you hang up.

Image
By that yardstick, the US and Allies have not won WWII yet. US troops are still in Germany and Japan.
Excellent point
It's only an excellent point if you think that without U.S. troops in Germany and Japan that the Nazis and Imperialists would retake power in those countries. Otherwise it's a red herring.
I disagree.

Saddam Hussein = Hitler

US troops were not needed to prevent the resurgence of the Nazis or the Baathists.

Communists = Islamists

US troops were required to prevent the Socialists from taking over war torn Europe and Islamists from taking over war torn Iraq.

US troops remained in Germany. US troops were pulled out of Iraq by oBUMa.

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Doc
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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by Doc » Fri Oct 20, 2017 3:15 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 1:32 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:54 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 9:07 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:24 am
The U.S. hadn't won at the end of Bush's administration. If you have to leave a large occupying force in place to prevent everything you did from disintegrating, you haven't won yet, no matter how many self-fellating MISSION ACCOMPLISHED banners you hang up.

Image
By that yardstick, the US and Allies have not won WWII yet. US troops are still in Germany and Japan.
Excellent point
It's only an excellent point if you think that without U.S. troops in Germany and Japan that the Nazis and Imperialists would retake power in those countries. Otherwise it's a red herring.
Which is basically what was happening in Iraq after Obama pulled out the troops. Not to mention there were 40,000 US troops in Little Bosnia for many years after the war ended. Which happens to be eight times more than Obama proposed to leave in Iraq
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

neverfail
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Re:..and they promised that Iraq would be "a cakewalk'.

Post by neverfail » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:20 am

Doc wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:33 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 5:04 pm
Doc wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:34 pm

"Winning the war " How do you define that if it is not greatly reducing the violence with your chosen side still in power?
That was merely the calm before the coming storm doc.
2008 until the end of 2012. Heck of a long Calm before the storm.
Upheavals do not work to a pre-set timetable.
Have you seriously taken a good look at the "chosen side" that the US actually brought to power in Iraq? I do not believe so!

"Winning the peace" that followed was beyond the capability of the US and had to be done by the Iraqi's themselves. I would have thought that my quote on the rise on Malaki representing the vengeful nationalism of his (majority) Shia constituents should have been enough to open your eyes. But apparently not!
It was won NF.


Doc wrote:
Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:34 pm
AS I pointed out previously the war was over by the time GW Bush left office. Obama rekindled it.
The war rekindled under his watch but Obama did not cause it. The causes were (and continue to be) inherent in the unstable status quo left behind in Iraq.
Obama left the Iraqis hanging because he made a campaign promise to end the war in Iraq and win the war in Afghanistan. Obama is gone an dboth are still going on.
Not unusual for a politician to make a rash promise in the heat of an election campaign and been sorry afterwards.

Doc, just like the generation of Americans who turned against the Vietnam War in the aftermath of the 1968 Tet offensive; Americans by the end of Bush's second term in office must have concluded that, after so many years of apparently endless conflict, that likewise the 2003 invasion of Iraq was another failed foreign policy move. In both cases the public mood must have been "let's put this horrid blunder behind us as quickly as possible and move on!".
Elected government officials ignore shifts and changes in public opinion like that at their peril.

It seems to me that the American public normally anticipate, demand, that their wars overseas be won cheaply and swiftly. When this does not eventuate they rapidly lose confidence and withdraw popular support. Vietnam and Iraq both vividly illustrate that the long, hard slog for which considerable sacrifices must be made is not for the Americans.

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cassowary
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Re: ISIS on the run under Trump

Post by cassowary » Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:37 am

That is true Neverfail. Americans have patience for about 10 years. However oBUMa might have left 30,000 troops behind to help the Iraqis against a new threat ~ the ideology of Islamism just as they left behind troops in Germany to guard against another totalitarian ideology - Socialism.

His failure to do so comes from his rose tinted vision of Islam and his under estimation of ISIS which he dismissed as the Junior Varsity Team. These were failures of judgement.

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