Yom Kippur

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Yom Kippur

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:59 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:37 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:58 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:19 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:01 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:43 am
Religious people turn to God to give them hope for a better future, either in this world or the next. Non-religious people turn to government to provide them with a better future in this world.
Unless they don't want either gods or masters, which is why I'm functionally atheist yet want less government than you do.
Then you are a rare person who puts your hope of a better future on yourself. You must be self sufficient, confident and maybe rich already.
I don't know about rare, but even one exception disproves a theory. Besides, I don't find that religious people have any special reluctance for big government, they don't even all want it to do different things than "godless commies" do.
I find that religious people generally don't vote for Socialist of Leftist Parties. That's what I was referring to.
Ethnic minorities in the U.S. tend to be more both religious and more likely to vote for Democrats. But in the suburbs, even white churchgoers tend to be center-left, like my sister, who is both a minister and a Democrat.

I'm sorry, but I just don't think the dichotomy you're presenting plays out here.
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cassowary
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Re: Yom Kippur

Post by cassowary » Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:25 pm

Of course, it does not mean every religious person is a Republican. But statistics show that a religious person tends to vote Republican - even after factoring in minorities who are religious.

Why are Republicans more likely to go to church than Democrats?
Republicans got God.

A new poll suggests they are much more likely to go to church than Democrats.

A Gallup Poll shows that 40% of Republicans say they attend church weekly.

Twenty-one percent say they attend nearly weekly or monthly, and 38% say they seldom or rarely go to church.

Compare that to only 27% of Democrats who say they go to church every week, 20% who say they go monthly and 52% of Democrats who say they seldom or never go to church.

These polls also show that Democrats are less religious than the average American, and Republicans are more religious.
The question is why. My theory is that the Democratic Party like all leftist parties is the party of the welfare state. It encourages you to become dependent on the government. Those with strong faith will turn to God to solve their financial and other problems. Those without faith will turn to the government.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Yom Kippur

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:50 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:25 pm
The question is why. My theory is that the Democratic Party like all leftist parties is the party of the welfare state. It encourages you to become dependent on the government. Those with strong faith will turn to God to solve their financial and other problems. Those without faith will turn to the government.
So you keep asserting. But tell even the most religious Republican voters that you're cutting Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, and the military, and they'll go ballistic, and the four of those together are about three quarters of the U.S. federal budget.

Seriously, I live here, and while I understand why you wish what you were saying were true, prevailing attitudes on the ground just don't support it.
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Re: Yom Kippur

Post by cassowary » Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:24 pm

Military? That's not part of the welfare state. The religious people have gotten used to the 3 others - Medicaid, Social Security and Medicare, admittedly parts of the welfare state. There is no undoing that. Once you get used to a benefit, its tough to undo. You can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again. But notice that it is the more religious Republicans and not the more secular Democrats who are most resistant to an expansion of the welfare state - such as oBUMaCare or Sanders' single payer option. There has to be an explanation.

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Re: Yom Kippur

Post by Sertorio » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:54 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:25 pm
My theory is that the Democratic Party like all leftist parties is the party of the welfare state. It encourages you to become dependent on the government. Those with strong faith will turn to God to solve their financial and other problems. Those without faith will turn to the government.
If one must be an optimist to expect the government - any government - to solve any problems of ours, one must be completely crazy to turn to God for such assistance...

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Re: Yom Kippur

Post by Alexis » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:39 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:43 am
Religious people turn to God to give them hope for a better future, either in this world or the next. Non-religious people turn to government to provide them with a better future in this world.
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:54 am
If one must be an optimist to expect the government - any government - to solve any problems of ours, one must be completely crazy to turn to God for such assistance...
I disagree with those comparisons.

1) First, one does not turn to God in the hope that He provides a better future / a better world, not in this world nor in the next. One does not turn to God so that he provides something that we humans can help ourselves with.

Or at least one should not. "Help yourself, Heavens will help you", as we say in French. If one asks from God something that one has already the power to do, it's at best a silly behaviour, at worst idolatry: one does not address God, but an imaginary friend-in-Heaven that would be there to provide in our place...

More fundamentally, for everything that human hands, hearts and smarts can provide, we shouldn't ask for God's help because He has already given it. Or what are those hands, hearts and minds we are provided with? :)

One turns rightfully to God if it's to ask something that we can receive only from Him, instead of from our own efforts. And that is the power to defeat what Jesus with the prophets of Israel called "sin", which means everything in ourselves which turns to and yearns for death, in the form of egoism, anger, pride, etc.

That power, we can receive only from God. He is ready to provide to all, regardless of who we are and what we believe, for He loves us. And even within the most atheistic person, God dwells and invites.

However, we will receive that power fully only if we consciously yearn and accept it. That yearn, that request and acceptance of God's love and liberation from sin that He proposes, is called prayer.

2) Second, the question of government's role is completely different and perpendicular to question of God.

When we enjoy a good that was paid by the community, we enjoy a good that we ourselves have provided... for we are the community, the government is none other that our representative, it is "us".

Taking advantage of a good that the community has paid, is taking advantage of a good that I have paid. For I am a member of the community.

The question of what it is better to pay as a community, and what it is better to pay as an individual, is not a question of dependency and reliance on an external agent... for neither community nor government are external agents (at least in democratic countries): they are me, because they are "we", and I am a part of that "we".

That question is basically a practical and pragmatic one. What works best?

I don't want to discuss it at length, but I will just underline one obvious point: that only mixed systems should be considered for debate.

For the extremes, we already know:
- On the one hand, Stalinism, with all its inefficiency, oppression and mass murders
- On the other hand, a caricature or extreme version of High Middle Ages Europe, with private wars, private justice, private roads and poverty at the expense of a few

Which mixed system... What should be community-funded and what should be individually-funded... That is, and will continue to be discussed and experimented for a long time. :)

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Milo
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Re: Yom Kippur

Post by Milo » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:02 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:24 pm
Military? That's not part of the welfare state. The religious people have gotten used to the 3 others - Medicaid, Social Security and Medicare, admittedly parts of the welfare state. There is no undoing that. Once you get used to a benefit, its tough to undo. You can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again. But notice that it is the more religious Republicans and not the more secular Democrats who are most resistant to an expansion of the welfare state - such as oBUMaCare or Sanders' single payer option. There has to be an explanation.
Conservatives resist change by definition.

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cassowary
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Re: Yom Kippur

Post by cassowary » Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:41 am

Alexis wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:39 am

1) First, one does not turn to God in the hope that He provides a better future / a better world, not in this world nor in the next. One does not turn to God so that he provides something that we humans can help ourselves with.

Or at least one should not. "Help yourself, Heavens will help you", as we say in French. If one asks from God something that one has already the power to do, it's at best a silly behaviour, at worst idolatry: one does not address God, but an imaginary friend-in-Heaven that would be there to provide in our place...

More fundamentally, for everything that human hands, hearts and smarts can provide, we shouldn't ask for God's help because He has already given it. Or what are those hands, hearts and minds we are provided with? :)

One turns rightfully to God if it's to ask something that we can receive only from Him, instead of from our own efforts. And that is the power to defeat what Jesus with the prophets of Israel called "sin", which means everything in ourselves which turns to and yearns for death, in the form of egoism, anger, pride, etc.

That power, we can receive only from God. He is ready to provide to all, regardless of who we are and what we believe, for He loves us. And even within the most atheistic person, God dwells and invites.

However, we will receive that power fully only if we consciously yearn and accept it. That yearn, that request and acceptance of God's love and liberation from sin that He proposes, is called prayer.
I guess we are talking about two different things. Perhaps this quote from an ardent Socialist, Moses Hess, will help to explain what I am trying to say.
The Christian... imagines the better future of the human species... in the image of heavenly joy... We, on the other hand, will have this heaven on earth.

From A Communist Confession of Faith)
Works by Moses Hess
What I am trying to say is that the irreligious do not believe in God or a heaven as Christians and other faiths do. So their purpose in life is not to attain heaven or nirvana or whatever by pleasing God. They pin their hopes for a better life for humanity by Socialism which of course requires big government that will provide this heaven on earth as Moses Hess put it.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Yom Kippur

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:58 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 7:41 am
What I am trying to say is that the irreligious do not believe in God or a heaven as Christians and other faiths do. So their purpose in life is not to attain heaven or nirvana or whatever by pleasing God. They pin their hopes for a better life for humanity by Socialism which of course requires big government that will provide this heaven on earth as Moses Hess put it.
It seems that everyone here understands what you're saying, but that no one from any corner of the ideological map agrees with you on this. You're repeatedly asserting that the irreligious are socialist, which is not only ironically collectivist by lumping a billion or so people together, but also requires a definition of "socialist" that somehow includes moderates who favour a modest welfare state yet excludes conservatives who support the entitlement programs (and I'm not including the military here!) that are the majority of the U.S. federal budget.

Pick a different argument, my friend. This one just didn't make it. RIP.
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Re: Yom Kippur

Post by dagbay » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:27 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:22 pm
dagbay wrote:
Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:32 am
While I admit little knowledge of the matter of repentence in Christianity, I came across this article on PJM https://pjmedia.com/faith/2017/09/30/ch ... om-kippur/
Repentance I agree is important for civilized coexistence. It works better psychologicaly -I believe if there is a consequence to failure to repent and it only works if repentance brings about a positive change. Jewish tradition values interpersonal repentance as a major and essential part of the process.
Sounds like a good tradition dagbay. But while seeking to redress relations with their fellow men (horizontal atonement?) do they also simultaneously seek forgiveness from God (vertical atonement?) .
Yes, particularly and parcel of the process of atonement - which starts by recognition and admission of transgressions and making a decision to change.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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