Can we stop the collapse of democracy?

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Doc
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Re: Can we stop the collapse of democracy?

Post by Doc » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:56 pm

dagbay wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:44 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:55 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:58 pm
Yes, I have always maintained that Fascism and its close cousin Nazism were from the left.
It's like no one on this forum has ever heard of a Nolan Chart.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Chart
I believe that the chart is highly simplified. Both right and left are much more fractured and people hold disparate views on different issues relative to their classification on core values.
To add to the confusion, modern terminology itself has been compromised and no longer reflects the simplicity captured in the chart which was true back in the 1970s. Today in the USA the label facist is placed on Trump and his supporters by people who by definition are facists as defined by Wikipedia (Authoritarian, seeking to control thought and speach and unlimited power to the state) most of whom identify themselves as liberals.
Even though the Nazis wanted to kill people by race and the communists wanted to kill people by class. They were both extremely violent and illiberal.
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell

neverfail
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Re: Can we stop the collapse of democracy?

Post by neverfail » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:11 am

Doc wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:56 pm


Even though the Nazis wanted to kill people by race and the communists wanted to kill people by class. They were both extremely violent and illiberal.
Thanks doc. That's the point a lot of our armchair online polemicists seem to miss when they wax free and easy on the theme of left wing and right wing.

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Sertorio
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Re: Can we stop the collapse of democracy?

Post by Sertorio » Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:11 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:11 am
Doc wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:56 pm


Even though the Nazis wanted to kill people by race and the communists wanted to kill people by class. They were both extremely violent and illiberal.
Thanks doc. That's the point a lot of our armchair online polemicists seem to miss when they wax free and easy on the theme of left wing and right wing.
There is a major difference. You cannot change your race and therefore you are doomed, no matter what you do. But you can change your social behaviour and are not forced to underwrite your class attitudes, so your survival depends on you.

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cassowary
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Re: Can we stop the collapse of democracy?

Post by cassowary » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:26 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:11 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:11 am
Doc wrote:
Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:56 pm


Even though the Nazis wanted to kill people by race and the communists wanted to kill people by class. They were both extremely violent and illiberal.
Thanks doc. That's the point a lot of our armchair online polemicists seem to miss when they wax free and easy on the theme of left wing and right wing.
There is a major difference. You cannot change your race and therefore you are doomed, no matter what you do. But you can change your social behaviour and are not forced to underwrite your class attitudes, so your survival depends on you.
That's true in theory. But it is not true in practice. Mao killed the landlord class in China. The Kulaks were killed by Stalin in Russia. They cannot bring themselves to trust those that have their property taken from them and become part of a new Socialist Utopia. The thinking goes that surely they will harbor grudges and sabotage the "Socialist Utopia", when they have a chance.

It was paranoia of sabotage by hidden enemies that led Pol Pot to kill by the millions. It never occurred to their dim brains that Socialism does not work. So it must be sabotage.

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cassowary
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Re: Can we stop the collapse of democracy?

Post by cassowary » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:00 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:55 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:58 pm
Yes, I have always maintained that Fascism and its close cousin Nazism were from the left.
It's like no one on this forum has ever heard of a Nolan Chart.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nolan_Chart
The Nolan Chart is a pretty good way to present information where someone or party stands in the political spectrum. But there is more than one way to present such information. Here is cassowary's chart:
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cassowary
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Re: Can we stop the collapse of democracy?

Post by cassowary » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:03 am

I suppose the US will be in quadrant 1. Chile under Pinochet was in quadrant 2. Cuba, Soviet Union and Fatty Kim were or are in quadrant 3. Sweden is in quadrant 4.

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dagbay
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Re: Can we stop the collapse of democracy?

Post by dagbay » Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:45 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:03 am
I suppose the US will be in quadrant 1. Chile under Pinochet was in quadrant 2. Cuba, Soviet Union and Fatty Kim were or are in quadrant 3. Sweden is in quadrant 4.
I'll go along with that. But now that you placed the natives in their quadrants, what information did you get?
I'll tell ya; place all 190+ countries on the chart and you will find that the left side is way heavier than the right with more countries belonging to quad 3 than 4. Place the number of citizens instead of countries and you will be just a little off balance probably to the left bottom.

It might get interesting if you plot the world of the mid 20th century in comparison -that may drive some conclusions as to where the world is heading to.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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cassowary
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Re: Can we stop the collapse of democracy?

Post by cassowary » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:01 pm

dagbay wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:45 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:03 am
I suppose the US will be in quadrant 1. Chile under Pinochet was in quadrant 2. Cuba, Soviet Union and Fatty Kim were or are in quadrant 3. Sweden is in quadrant 4.
I'll go along with that. But now that you placed the natives in their quadrants, what information did you get?
I'll tell ya; place all 190+ countries on the chart and you will find that the left side is way heavier than the right with more countries belonging to quad 3 than 4. Place the number of citizens instead of countries and you will be just a little off balance probably to the left bottom.
I agree. More nations and people are to the left. My book has a theory for that. It is because the majority of people have below average income. Politicians promising to redistribute income from those with above average income to those with below average income will do well in elections.

See this chart for income distribution for the UK:

Image

Notice that the mean (average) income is higher than the median income. Roughly 60% of people have below average income. The poorer 60% of the people use their vote to get the income of the richer 40%. That is why Socialism is popular. But as historical evidence proves, Socialism ultimately leads to bankruptcy. It is unnatural. It is against the laws of nature.

Image

See. Inequality in nature. One lion with many lionesses. If lions are capable of democracy, each male lion will vote to redistribute the lionesses.

So to stop the collapse of democracy we need to tweak the one man one vote system so that the 40% above average income people have equal power to the 60% below average income people. I do not want either group dominating the other. Money flows from those with less power to those with more power. I do not want an Ancien Regime situation either where the rich have too much power. That will be politically unstable. Think of the French revolution.
It might get interesting if you plot the world of the mid 20th century in comparison -that may drive some conclusions as to where the world is heading to.
That sounds like an interesting but time consuming exercise. Off hand, I think there are more democracies today than in the mid 20th century thanks the the US victory of the Cold War. After the fall of the Berlin Wall, E Europe was liberated and became politically free.

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dagbay
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Re: Can we stop the collapse of democracy?

Post by dagbay » Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:18 pm

Politely I disagree with the premise that the fact that the median income is lower than the average in the UK means that the lower than average income group will favor income redistribution policies as a whole. In reality I think anyone in the low income half who sees an improving standard of living will be wary of income redistribution since they can see the day that they could enter the upper income group. These people form the bulk of the lower income group. Subtracting them you are left with the desparate sub-group. The desparate group that remains
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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cassowary
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Re: Can we stop the collapse of democracy?

Post by cassowary » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:39 pm

dagbay wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:18 pm
Politely I disagree with the premise that the fact that the median income is lower than the average in the UK means that the lower than average income group will favor income redistribution policies as a whole. In reality I think anyone in the low income half who sees an improving standard of living will be wary of income redistribution since they can see the day that they could enter the upper income group. These people form the bulk of the lower income group. Subtracting them you are left with the desparate sub-group. The desparate group that remains
I wish that is how it works in real life. But if you are right, then those who do not favor income redistribution will form a majority. How does that explain why all countries have progressive taxation and welfare states in all mature democracies?

Remember that money always flow from the politcally weak to the strong. During the days of the French Ancien Regime, the nobles and King did not pay taxes. But the peasants did. Money flowed from the poor to the rich.

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