Venezuela, The Revolution Begins

Discussion of current events
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Booklady
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Re: Venezuela crushed armed revolt

Post by Booklady » Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:37 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:02 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:34 pm
cassowary wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:50 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:19 am

(off on another tangent) The only reason I can see why civil war as so far not broken out is because political opposition has so far been led by politicians representing the interests of the oligarchy: the privileged elite of pre-Chavez times who, of course, want their old power, privileges and confiscated assets back. Such a minority grouping would probably be content to send others to their deaths for the purpose but would not normally put their own lives on the line to achieve such a regression.

In other words; restoration of the comfortable old status quo ante is not worth their dying for.
The problem is that the people are hungry. So they got nothing to lose. In such a chaotic situation, it may not be the old oligarchy that is leading the charge. It is more like an explosion from the people themselves. A new leader, not afraid to die, may emerge from this chaos.
So far no such "new leader" has emerged Cass. If he is doing so now then it has escaped my attention.

By chance I saw an article on Venezuela on one of our news and current affairs shows just last night. It seems that the opposition there is weakened by the fact that it comprises disparate groups with no common agenda and no acknowledged leadership. Despite the seething discontent of the populace at large, there is still nothing to galvanize that body of misery into decisive action. So Maduro still rules by default of his opponents.
Maduro crushed military rebellion

Maduro escaped this time. But he may not escape forever. An unknown leader may emerge and win power. A great temptation for Maduro is to ask for Cuban troops. Then his regime will be seen as a puppet regime for a foreign occupier.
Good observation, Cassowary. If he hasn't already. There is already a large contingency of Cuban "advisors" already in Venezuela. And under the Castro regime, the people of Cuba belong to the state, to be sent anywhere at the will of the state; so there won't be any impediment to send more Cubans there. Raul is desperate for oil.
A saucer of cream will do for me, thank you for your kindness.

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cassowary
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Venezuela descends into predictable dictatorship

Post by cassowary » Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:46 pm

Booklady,

As I warned in my book, Socialism has a tendency to degenerate into dictatorship. Venezuela is a proof of that. Equality is unnatural. Attempts to enforce it requires force.

Venezuela descends into predictable dictatorship.
Last weekend, president Nicolas Maduro used a sham election to consolidate power, and by Tuesday armed thugs were rounding up opposition leaders. This is the all but inevitable outcome of the Venezuelan government’s economic policies, which have driven the richest nation in Latin America — a country with more oil than Saudi Arabia — into shocking destitution.
Only Socialism can turn a resource rich nation into poverty.
And make no mistake: Venezuela’s government has had not just defenders, but outright cheerleaders. We’re not talking about just the usual Hollywood idiots like Sean Penn and Michael Moore, who praised Venezuela for providing “free health & education 4 all.”
Yep. The usual people who support western leftist parties like the Democratic Party in the US and Labor Party in the UK needs to be re-educated after being miseducated in places like Berkely or the London School of Economics. Giving people free this or that will ultimately lead to bankruptcy.

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Sertorio
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Re: Venezuela descends into predictable dictatorship

Post by Sertorio » Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:04 pm

cassowary wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 3:46 pm
Booklady,

As I warned in my book, Socialism has a tendency to degenerate into dictatorship. Venezuela is a proof of that. Equality is unnatural. Attempts to enforce it requires force.

Venezuela descends into predictable dictatorship.
Last weekend, president Nicolas Maduro used a sham election to consolidate power, and by Tuesday armed thugs were rounding up opposition leaders. This is the all but inevitable outcome of the Venezuelan government’s economic policies, which have driven the richest nation in Latin America — a country with more oil than Saudi Arabia — into shocking destitution.
Only Socialism can turn a resource rich nation into poverty.
And make no mistake: Venezuela’s government has had not just defenders, but outright cheerleaders. We’re not talking about just the usual Hollywood idiots like Sean Penn and Michael Moore, who praised Venezuela for providing “free health & education 4 all.”
Yep. The usual people who support western leftist parties like the Democratic Party in the US and Labor Party in the UK needs to be re-educated after being miseducated in places like Berkely or the London School of Economics. Giving people free this or that will ultimately lead to bankruptcy.
I'm starting to think that the World needs Cass as leader? King? Emperor? Duce? Führer? Caudillo?... His depth of understanding of all things human are wasted in such a small stage as Singapore...or this forum... ;)

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Doc
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Re: Venezuela crushed armed revolt

Post by Doc » Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:33 pm

cassowary wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:02 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:34 pm
cassowary wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:50 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:19 am

(off on another tangent) The only reason I can see why civil war as so far not broken out is because political opposition has so far been led by politicians representing the interests of the oligarchy: the privileged elite of pre-Chavez times who, of course, want their old power, privileges and confiscated assets back. Such a minority grouping would probably be content to send others to their deaths for the purpose but would not normally put their own lives on the line to achieve such a regression.

In other words; restoration of the comfortable old status quo ante is not worth their dying for.
The problem is that the people are hungry. So they got nothing to lose. In such a chaotic situation, it may not be the old oligarchy that is leading the charge. It is more like an explosion from the people themselves. A new leader, not afraid to die, may emerge from this chaos.
So far no such "new leader" has emerged Cass. If he is doing so now then it has escaped my attention.

By chance I saw an article on Venezuela on one of our news and current affairs shows just last night. It seems that the opposition there is weakened by the fact that it comprises disparate groups with no common agenda and no acknowledged leadership. Despite the seething discontent of the populace at large, there is still nothing to galvanize that body of misery into decisive action. So Maduro still rules by default of his opponents.
Maduro crushed military rebellion

Maduro escaped this time. But he may not escape forever. An unknown leader may emerge and win power. A great temptation for Maduro is to ask for Cuban troops. Then his regime will be seen as a puppet regime for a foreign occupier.
It wasn't much of a rebellion. The timing was pretty bad as well. Best time to have a military rebellion is when people are out in the streets mobilized.
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell

neverfail
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Re: Venezuela's creeping military takeover from within.

Post by neverfail » Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:15 am

Doc wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:33 pm

It wasn't much of a rebellion. The timing was pretty bad as well. Best time to have a military rebellion is when people are out in the streets mobilized.
Agreed! It was but a flea bite doc. Worse still a flea bite by amateurs. Look at what they are up against:
..............................................................................................................
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017 ... hings-know

(quote) Political power
Of the 32 cabinet posts in the Maduro government, 12 are held by military men, 10 of them active-duty and two retired.

The military is commanded by General Vladimir Padrino, the defense minister, and by General Remigio Ceballos, commander of operational strategy. Padrino is a sort of "superminister," to whom other cabinet members must report, Maduro said last year.

Among the key cabinet posts in military hands are the interior and justice ministries; the food ministry; agriculture and lands; and energy.

The opposition blames Food Minister Rodolfo Marco Torres, a retired colonel, for the severe shortages plaguing the country.

Opposition leaders have sharply criticized what they call the "politicization" of the military under Maduro and his predecessor. "The worst error committed by Chavez was to bring the military out of the barracks" and into the streets, said Henry Ramos Allup, a former National Assembly president.

"Who is going to put them back?"
(unquote)
.................................................................................
The worst error? Probably the smartest thing that Chavez ever did was to make their military partners in crime as insurance against a military coup against his government. This man understood how power works in Latin America.

Very likely though, with the passage of time Maduro will have to cede more and more power to the military brass as price of their continuing support until the point is reached where the country is under military rule anyhow.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Venezuela descends into predictable dictatorship

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:52 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 4:04 pm
I'm starting to think that the World needs Cass as leader? King? Emperor? Duce? Führer? Caudillo?... His depth of understanding of all things human are wasted in such a small stage as Singapore...or this forum... ;)
What if it were you? Vozhd? Conducător? Subcommandante? Dear Leader? :twisted:
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

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Doc
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Re: Venezuela's creeping military takeover from within.

Post by Doc » Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:37 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:15 am
Doc wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:33 pm

It wasn't much of a rebellion. The timing was pretty bad as well. Best time to have a military rebellion is when people are out in the streets mobilized.
Agreed! It was but a flea bite doc. Worse still a flea bite by amateurs. Look at what they are up against:
..............................................................................................................
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2017 ... hings-know

(quote) Political power
Of the 32 cabinet posts in the Maduro government, 12 are held by military men, 10 of them active-duty and two retired.

The military is commanded by General Vladimir Padrino, the defense minister, and by General Remigio Ceballos, commander of operational strategy. Padrino is a sort of "superminister," to whom other cabinet members must report, Maduro said last year.

Among the key cabinet posts in military hands are the interior and justice ministries; the food ministry; agriculture and lands; and energy.

The opposition blames Food Minister Rodolfo Marco Torres, a retired colonel, for the severe shortages plaguing the country.

Opposition leaders have sharply criticized what they call the "politicization" of the military under Maduro and his predecessor. "The worst error committed by Chavez was to bring the military out of the barracks" and into the streets, said Henry Ramos Allup, a former National Assembly president.

"Who is going to put them back?"
(unquote)
.................................................................................
The worst error? Probably the smartest thing that Chavez ever did was to make their military partners in crime as insurance against a military coup against his government. This man understood how power works in Latin America.

Very likely though, with the passage of time Maduro will have to cede more and more power to the military brass as price of their continuing support until the point is reached where the country is under military rule anyhow.

I am thinking of the IRanian revolution where foot soldiers refused to shoot civilians and turned their guns on their comrades
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell

neverfail
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Re: Venezuela's creeping military takeover from within.

Post by neverfail » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:00 am

Doc wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:37 am
I am thinking of the IRanian revolution where foot soldiers refused to shoot civilians and turned their guns on their comrades
Don't count on it happening in Venezuela Doc.

In Iran the military were servants of the Shah but in Venezuela the military are stakeholders in government.

neverfail
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Re: Venezuela: The power of their army.

Post by neverfail » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:20 am

Armed power
The FANB has some 365,000 troops (army, navy, air force, national guard and reserve), only 1,000 fewer than Brazil, according to the Latin American Security and Defense Network, a policy and analysis center.

But Venezuela has 30 million people; Brazil has 210 million.

In 2006, the United States prohibited the sale or transfer of military arms or technology to Venezuela, whose then-president, Hugo Chavez, had closely allied the country with Russia and China.

Russia has supplied Venezuela with rifles, anti-tank rocket launchers, tanks and other combat vehicles, artillery, anti-air defense systems and combat planes, helicopters and missiles, according to the NGO Control Ciudadano, which monitors military activity.

China has provided communications gear, uniforms, radars, armored vehicles, planes and helicopters.

Economic power
A television channel, a bank, an auto-assembly plant and a construction group -- these are some of the businesses controlled by the Venezuelan military, joining the Military Mining, Gas and Petroleum Company known as Camimpeg.

The latter performs functions similar to Petroleos de Venezuela, or PDVSA. the state-owned petroleum company. It repairs and maintains oil wells, and sells and distributes the products of the oil, gas, mining and petrochemical industries.

Camimpeg is at the heart of the "military-industrial engine," a Maduro idea for confronting what he sees as the "economic war" being waged by the opposition and sympathetic businesses to destabilize his government.

.........................................................................................................................

It reminds me of the role of the army in (respectively) the People's Republic of China and Indonesia. The first is ruled by their Communist Party as a one-party state while the second violently rejected Communism in a bloodbath back in 1965-66. It makes no difference. In anti-communist Indonesia the military operate key businesses (along with rackets) just as the military also does in China. Venezuela seems determined to follow in their footsteps.

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Doc
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Re: Venezuela's creeping military takeover from within.

Post by Doc » Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:02 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:00 am
Doc wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:37 am
I am thinking of the IRanian revolution where foot soldiers refused to shoot civilians and turned their guns on their comrades
Don't count on it happening in Venezuela Doc.

In Iran the military were servants of the Shah but in Venezuela the military are stakeholders in government.
The leadership is. but so were they under the Shaw.
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell

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