Venezuela, The Revolution Begins

Discussion of current events
neverfail
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Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by neverfail » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:16 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:35 pm
Doc wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:20 pm


The wealth distribution model is wealth distribution to the leadership and their families As I recall Chavez's daughter is now one of the richest people in Venezuela is not all of South America. Not bad for the daughter of the leader of a failed coup detat who should have never been allowed to run for public office Much like HItler....
It is true that Chavez's daughter is rich. The Chavez certainly redistributed money to themselves. But those who supported them got their share too. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is always popular because the Peters are always outnumbered by the Pauls. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is the crux of Socialism. It does not work.
It's all the fault of socialism, you say?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh, yeah sure! As though a long list of Venezuelan governments unconnected to socialism BEFORE Chavez had not dipped their hands into the till:

Read up on it and squirm inwardly, Cassowary. :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Venezuela

(quote)The history of Venezuela has been mired with "persistent and intense presence of corruption".[6] In 1991, author Ruth Capriles wrote The history of corruption in Venezuela is the history of our democracy depicting the many instances of corruption in the country.[7] In 1997, Pro Calidad de Vida, a Venezuelan NGO claimed that some $100 billion from oil revenue has been misused in the preceding 25 years(unquote).

Umm...1997 and the 25 years prior to that occurred BEFORE Chavez gained power.

So if H V Chavez did take care of his own daughter (and so far all of the allegations I have read on this website insinuate that she made that vast sum corruptly, without any proof supplied that she did so) then he was arguably acting in conformity to a time-honoured Venezuelan tradition.

Just because a Latino politician markets himself under the label "socialist" does not mean that he has ceased to be a Latino - steeped in their local tradition.
..........................................................................................................

Cassowary, I understand that you regard socialism and anything associated with it with utter distaste: but I cannot believe that you would be absolutely ignorant of such things as cultural factors influencing the behaviour of figures in public life like that. So I have concluded that in your extreme bias you are being deliberately ingenuous; like some dishonorable politician using any plausible lie he can come up with to besmirch the public image of a political rival into disrepute.

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cassowary
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Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by cassowary » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:32 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:16 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:35 pm
Doc wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 12:20 pm


The wealth distribution model is wealth distribution to the leadership and their families As I recall Chavez's daughter is now one of the richest people in Venezuela is not all of South America. Not bad for the daughter of the leader of a failed coup detat who should have never been allowed to run for public office Much like HItler....
It is true that Chavez's daughter is rich. The Chavez certainly redistributed money to themselves. But those who supported them got their share too. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is always popular because the Peters are always outnumbered by the Pauls. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is the crux of Socialism. It does not work.
It's all the fault of socialism, you say?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Oh, yeah sure! As though a long list of Venezuelan governments unconnected to socialism BEFORE Chavez had not dipped their hands into the till:

Read up on it and squirm inwardly, Cassowary. :D

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Venezuela

(quote)The history of Venezuela has been mired with "persistent and intense presence of corruption".[6] In 1991, author Ruth Capriles wrote The history of corruption in Venezuela is the history of our democracy depicting the many instances of corruption in the country.[7] In 1997, Pro Calidad de Vida, a Venezuelan NGO claimed that some $100 billion from oil revenue has been misused in the preceding 25 years(unquote).

Umm...1997 and the 25 years prior to that occurred BEFORE Chavez gained power.

So if H V Chavez did take care of his own daughter (and so far all of the allegations I have read on this website insinuate that she made that vast sum corruptly, without any proof supplied that she did so) then he was arguably acting in conformity to a time-honoured Venezuelan tradition.

Just because a Latino politician markets himself under the label "socialist" does not mean that he has ceased to be a Latino - steeped in their local tradition.
..........................................................................................................

Cassowary, I understand that you regard socialism and anything associated with it with utter distaste: but I cannot believe that you would be absolutely ignorant of such things as cultural factors influencing the behaviour of figures in public life like that. So I have concluded that in your extreme bias you are being deliberately ingenuous; like some dishonorable politician using any plausible lie he can come up with to besmirch the public image of a political rival into disrepute.
Neverfail,

You missed the point. I did not blame Socialism for corruption. It was there all along. I blame socialism for the failure of the Venezuelan economy. Read what I wrote about why Socialism does not work.

I will copy and paste here for you:
Robbing Peter to pay Paul is always popular because the Peters are always outnumbered by the Pauls. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is the crux of Socialism. It does not work.

But the Peters are not stupid. They are not going to hang around to be robbed. I am pretty sure that most of them have gone to Miami or somewhere else with whatever is left of their capital. Without the Peters to create jobs, the Pauls become poorer than before. And that is what is happening in Venezuela today.

The way to wealth is to teach the Pauls to become Peters. That's the capitalist way.

“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.” .....Benjamin Franklin

neverfail
Posts: 1751
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Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by neverfail » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:59 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:32 pm
. I did not blame Socialism for corruption.
Then why do you keep on harping on the matter of Chavez' daughter's billions?

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cassowary
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Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by cassowary » Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:18 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:59 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:32 pm
. I did not blame Socialism for corruption.
Then why do you keep on harping on the matter of Chavez' daughter's billions?
Because Socialists claim to be for equality of wealth and for the poor. This makes leftist wealth accumulation more hypocritical and egregious. At the end of the day, politicians want power, money and girls. My grandma was right.

neverfail
Posts: 1751
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by neverfail » Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:38 am

cassowary wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:18 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:59 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:32 pm
. I did not blame Socialism for corruption.
Then why do you keep on harping on the matter of Chavez' daughter's billions?
Because Socialists claim to be for equality of wealth and for the poor. This makes leftist wealth accumulation more hypocritical and egregious. At the end of the day, politicians want power, money and girls. My grandma was right.
Well, he only gave his daughter a helping hand. No accusation has surfaced about Chavez doing it for himself.

Duty to family is I believe is a big thing in Latin America as it is throughout the third world. Would his countrymen have held him in greater esteem if Chavez had neglected to provide for members of his own family. Given their sort of culture I do not believe so!

Hypocritical and egregious? Where do you get the funny impression from that socialism means equality of wealth?

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SteveFoerster
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Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:26 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:38 am
Hypocritical and egregious? Where do you get the funny impression from that socialism means equality of wealth?
Do a search for "inequality" and see who bangs on about it. Go ahead, we'll wait.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

neverfail
Posts: 1751
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by neverfail » Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:50 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:26 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:38 am
Hypocritical and egregious? Where do you get the funny impression from that socialism means equality of wealth?
Do a search for "inequality" and see who bangs on about it. Go ahead, we'll wait.
(quote) From each according to his ability; to each according to his needs. - words of Karl Marx - generally considered the grandfather of socialism.

Human abilities differ, often considerably, from one individual to another as do needs.

It follows from that, therefore, that Marx sanctioned inequality.

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cassowary
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Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by cassowary » Sat Apr 21, 2018 11:52 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:50 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 2:26 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:38 am
Hypocritical and egregious? Where do you get the funny impression from that socialism means equality of wealth?
Do a search for "inequality" and see who bangs on about it. Go ahead, we'll wait.
(quote) From each according to his ability; to each according to his needs. - words of Karl Marx - generally considered the grandfather of socialism.

Human abilities differ, often considerably, from one individual to another as do needs.

It follows from that, therefore, that Marx sanctioned inequality.
No, Neverfail. It's the reverse. Marx was saying that those with more abilities (and hence make more money) must contribute to satisfying the needs of those with lesser abilities. That requires wealth redistribution. This means robbing Peter to pay Paul.

The capitalist creed will sound something like this:

"To each according to his ability. From no other shall satisfy the needs of each. "

Very soon, Paul will not bother to work. Neither will Peter because his sweat is not going to benefit him or his family. That is why Socialism fails every time.

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cassowary
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Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by cassowary » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:38 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:38 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:18 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:59 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:32 pm
. I did not blame Socialism for corruption.
Then why do you keep on harping on the matter of Chavez' daughter's billions?
Because Socialists claim to be for equality of wealth and for the poor. This makes leftist wealth accumulation more hypocritical and egregious. At the end of the day, politicians want power, money and girls. My grandma was right.
Well, he only gave his daughter a helping hand. No accusation has surfaced about Chavez doing it for himself.

Duty to family is I believe is a big thing in Latin America as it is throughout the third world. Would his countrymen have held him in greater esteem if Chavez had neglected to provide for members of his own family. Given their sort of culture I do not believe so!

Hypocritical and egregious? Where do you get the funny impression from that socialism means equality of wealth?
Let me rephrase what I said earlier to make it clearer.

No, Neverfail. It's the reverse. Marx was saying that those with more abilities (and hence make more money) must contribute to satisfying the needs of those with lesser abilities. That requires wealth redistribution. This means robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Very soon, Paul will not bother to work. Neither will Peter because his sweat is not going to benefit him or his family. That is why Socialism fails every time.

The capitalist creed will sound something like this:

"To each according to his ability. From no other but oneself shall satisfy the needs of each. "

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Doc
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Re: in Venezuela, WHAT Revolution? They only have ongoing tradition down there.

Post by Doc » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:01 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:38 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 21, 2018 1:38 am
cassowary wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 7:18 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:59 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:32 pm
. I did not blame Socialism for corruption.
Then why do you keep on harping on the matter of Chavez' daughter's billions?
Because Socialists claim to be for equality of wealth and for the poor. This makes leftist wealth accumulation more hypocritical and egregious. At the end of the day, politicians want power, money and girls. My grandma was right.
Well, he only gave his daughter a helping hand. No accusation has surfaced about Chavez doing it for himself.

Duty to family is I believe is a big thing in Latin America as it is throughout the third world. Would his countrymen have held him in greater esteem if Chavez had neglected to provide for members of his own family. Given their sort of culture I do not believe so!

Hypocritical and egregious? Where do you get the funny impression from that socialism means equality of wealth?
Let me rephrase what I said earlier to make it clearer.

No, Neverfail. It's the reverse. Marx was saying that those with more abilities (and hence make more money) must contribute to satisfying the needs of those with lesser abilities. That requires wealth redistribution. This means robbing Peter to pay Paul.

Very soon, Paul will not bother to work. Neither will Peter because his sweat is not going to benefit him or his family. That is why Socialism fails every time.

The capitalist creed will sound something like this:

"To each according to his ability. From no other but oneself shall satisfy the needs of each. "
Actually Peter would immigrate to the US rather than stay and fight in Venezuela. The problem with Socialist states in South American is too many international borders.
“The further a society drifts from truth the more it will hate those who speak it.” … George Orwell

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