You don't have to be a communist to admit capitalism is in crisis

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SteveFoerster
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Re: You don't have to be a communist to admit capitalism is in crisis

Post by SteveFoerster » Wed May 31, 2017 4:47 pm

I'll give credit where it's due: Sertorio, your four point analysis on Germany and the Euro is much more sensible than most of the economic statements you've made here. I still don't agree that being tied to what is effectively a latter day Deutschmark makes sense for Mediterranean economies, but what you presented was coherent and defensible.
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neverfail
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Re: You don't have to be a communist to admit capitalism is in crisis

Post by neverfail » Wed May 31, 2017 9:16 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 5:34 am

You blame the Germans. I blame Socialism that demands an ever expanding welfare state.
Well, of course you would Cassowary! I have come to expect no better from you given the constricting pair of blinkers you normally view the world through.

Since when has grafting a taxpayer funded system of improved social welfare on top of a mixed market economy ever constituted socialism?

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Re: You don't have to be a communist to admit capitalism is in crisis

Post by cassowary » Wed May 31, 2017 10:58 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 9:16 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 5:34 am

You blame the Germans. I blame Socialism that demands an ever expanding welfare state.
Well, of course you would Cassowary! I have come to expect no better from you given the constricting pair of blinkers you normally view the world through.

Since when has grafting a taxpayer funded system of improved social welfare on top of a mixed market economy ever constituted socialism?
It is to me. Socialism was, in the past, defined as government ownership of the means of production (e.g. farms and factories). But nowadays, most Socialist or left leaning parties no longer ask for that. Instead, they fight for equality of outcome by taxing and spending money on a welfare state.

This is the ultimate goal of Socialism - equality. Ownership of the assets of production was just the means of achieving this. This has been abandoned by most Socialists because the result proved disastrous. But the goal remains the same.

The tax and welfare spending model also gave disastrous result in Greece.

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Re: You don't have to be a communist to admit capitalism is in crisis

Post by neverfail » Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:37 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 10:58 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 9:16 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 5:34 am

You blame the Germans. I blame Socialism that demands an ever expanding welfare state.
Well, of course you would Cassowary! I have come to expect no better from you given the constricting pair of blinkers you normally view the world through.

Since when has grafting a taxpayer funded system of improved social welfare on top of a mixed market economy ever constituted socialism?
It is to me. Socialism was, in the past, defined as government ownership of the means of production (e.g. farms and factories). But nowadays, most Socialist or left leaning parties no longer ask for that. Instead, they fight for equality of outcome by taxing and spending money on a welfare state.
Of course, social welfare policies could never be conceived and implemented to right wrongs, restore balance and/or mitigate social ills could it? No, it is always in response to some shadowy socialist agenda. :roll: :roll: :roll:

One of these days I pray that you will see things as they really are.

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Re: You don't have to be a communist to admit capitalism is in crisis

Post by SteveFoerster » Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:25 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 9:16 pm
Since when has grafting a taxpayer funded system of improved social welfare on top of a mixed market economy ever constituted socialism?
It's not, to be honest. Socialism is specifcally about who owns the means of production, it doesn't just mean any public policy that's an exception to free markets.
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Re: You don't have to be a communist to admit capitalism is in crisis

Post by neverfail » Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:29 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:25 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 9:16 pm
Since when has grafting a taxpayer funded system of improved social welfare on top of a mixed market economy ever constituted socialism?
It's not, to be honest. Socialism is specifcally about who owns the means of production, it doesn't just mean any public policy that's an exception to free markets.
Well said, Steve!

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Re: You don't have to be a communist to admit capitalism is in crisis

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:01 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:25 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 9:16 pm
Since when has grafting a taxpayer funded system of improved social welfare on top of a mixed market economy ever constituted socialism?
It's not, to be honest. Socialism is specifcally about who owns the means of production, it doesn't just mean any public policy that's an exception to free markets.
That's part of it, but it doesn't mean that socialism only exists when those means of production are state owned. Cooperatives and other ways of having workers participating in a firm's management ara perfectly compatible with socialism. In fact, they are better at building a socialist society than state ownership. And once markets are protected from manipulation by private interests, there is no reason why socialism cannot accept a free market system.

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Re: You don't have to be a communist to admit capitalism is in crisis

Post by neverfail » Fri Jun 02, 2017 4:11 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:01 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Jun 01, 2017 1:25 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed May 31, 2017 9:16 pm
Since when has grafting a taxpayer funded system of improved social welfare on top of a mixed market economy ever constituted socialism?
It's not, to be honest. Socialism is specifcally about who owns the means of production, it doesn't just mean any public policy that's an exception to free markets.
That's part of it, but it doesn't mean that socialism only exists when those means of production are state owned. Cooperatives and other ways of having workers participating in a firm's management ara perfectly compatible with socialism. In fact, they are better at building a socialist society than state ownership. And once markets are protected from manipulation by private interests, there is no reason why socialism cannot accept a free market system.
Also well put, Sertorio.

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Re: You don't have to be a communist to admit capitalism is in crisis

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:24 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 3:01 am
That's part of it, but it doesn't mean that socialism only exists when those means of production are state owned. Cooperatives and other ways of having workers participating in a firm's management ara perfectly compatible with socialism. In fact, they are better at building a socialist society than state ownership.
Then I'm unsure what your definition of socialism is, but I'll say that as private voluntary organisations, cooperatives fit perfectly well into a free market system.
And once markets are protected from manipulation by private interests, there is no reason why socialism cannot accept a free market system.
What exactly do you think markets are if you don't understand that they are merely the sum total of private interests balanced against one another? The only manipulation is from rent seekers exploiting political power, and the only way to protect from that is to reduce political power as much as possible.
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Re: You don't have to be a communist to admit capitalism is in crisis

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:34 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jun 02, 2017 11:24 am
And once markets are protected from manipulation by private interests, there is no reason why socialism cannot accept a free market system.
What exactly do you think markets are if you don't understand that they are merely the sum total of private interests balanced against one another? The only manipulation is from rent seekers exploiting political power, and the only way to protect from that is to reduce political power as much as possible.
The trouble is that you can't stop rent seekers from exploiting political power. Money is the most important source of power, so you can only control rent seekers by preventing great concentrations of money, and by taking financial institutions away from the hands of those rent seekers.

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