The Trump Doctrine

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Doc
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The Trump Doctrine

Post by Doc » Sun May 21, 2017 8:48 am

The Trump Doctrine: Hunt terrorists & we'll help you. Fund terrorists & we'll hunt you. BUT,we won't fight your fights for you
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/opin ... -east.html

A Trump Doctrine for the Middle East?

By MICHAEL DORANMAY 19, 2017
Continue reading the main story
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Credit Mike Reddy

During his campaign, Donald Trump’s Middle East policy seemed to begin and end with his vow to “bomb the hell” out of the Islamic State — a pledge that played well with his base but unsettled establishment foreign policy experts, who worried that the collateral damage would include everything else America has been trying to build in the region.

The establishment was giving itself too much credit: Our policies in the Middle East have been blowing themselves up for a good while. As Mr. Trump embarks Friday on his first foreign trip, including stops in Israel and Saudi Arabia, he has a chance to put in place a new long-term vision. In fact, the outlines of one are already in place. Despite the controversies at home, Mr. Trump may come away with a legacy-cementing achievement: a Trump Doctrine for the Middle East.

The Middle East is complex, but Mr. Trump’s predecessors stumbled for a singular reason: the rise of Iran. As a senior official in the George W. Bush administration, I saw firsthand how President Bush’s democracy project in Iraq diverted attention from countering Iran and its proxies. Mr. Bush seems to have believed that a robust democracy in Iraq would serve simultaneously as a bulwark against Sunni Islamic extremism and Iranian power. In the end, Iran slipped into Iraq under Mr. Bush’s nose, subverted the project, and recruited proxy militias to promote its interests.

Mr. Bush let Iran in by miscalculation. President Barack Obama, by contrast, embraced Iranian ascendancy with open arms — and not just in Iraq, but in Syria as well. Mr. Obama dropped efforts to contain Iran and sought a nuclear accord that would allow the West to normalize relations because he was convinced that recognition of an Iranian sphere of influence would persuade Tehran to function as a partner in stabilizing Iraq and Syria. This was another miscalculation, and it led directly to the Russian-Iranian military alliance in Syria.
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

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Milo
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Re: The Trump Doctrine

Post by Milo » Sun May 21, 2017 5:31 pm

Doc wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 8:48 am
The Trump Doctrine: Hunt terrorists & we'll help you. Fund terrorists & we'll hunt you. BUT,we won't fight your fights for you
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/opin ... -east.html

A Trump Doctrine for the Middle East?

By MICHAEL DORANMAY 19, 2017
Continue reading the main story
Share This Page
Photo
Credit Mike Reddy

During his campaign, Donald Trump’s Middle East policy seemed to begin and end with his vow to “bomb the hell” out of the Islamic State — a pledge that played well with his base but unsettled establishment foreign policy experts, who worried that the collateral damage would include everything else America has been trying to build in the region.

The establishment was giving itself too much credit: Our policies in the Middle East have been blowing themselves up for a good while. As Mr. Trump embarks Friday on his first foreign trip, including stops in Israel and Saudi Arabia, he has a chance to put in place a new long-term vision. In fact, the outlines of one are already in place. Despite the controversies at home, Mr. Trump may come away with a legacy-cementing achievement: a Trump Doctrine for the Middle East.

The Middle East is complex, but Mr. Trump’s predecessors stumbled for a singular reason: the rise of Iran. As a senior official in the George W. Bush administration, I saw firsthand how President Bush’s democracy project in Iraq diverted attention from countering Iran and its proxies. Mr. Bush seems to have believed that a robust democracy in Iraq would serve simultaneously as a bulwark against Sunni Islamic extremism and Iranian power. In the end, Iran slipped into Iraq under Mr. Bush’s nose, subverted the project, and recruited proxy militias to promote its interests.

Mr. Bush let Iran in by miscalculation. President Barack Obama, by contrast, embraced Iranian ascendancy with open arms — and not just in Iraq, but in Syria as well. Mr. Obama dropped efforts to contain Iran and sought a nuclear accord that would allow the West to normalize relations because he was convinced that recognition of an Iranian sphere of influence would persuade Tehran to function as a partner in stabilizing Iraq and Syria. This was another miscalculation, and it led directly to the Russian-Iranian military alliance in Syria.
Pfft! What a load of crap.

"President Trump is contemplating sending 3,000 to 5,000 more U.S. troops to Afghanistan."

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/17/wha ... ghanistan/

"Earlier this month, 400 Marines were quietly deployed to northern Syria to to support local militias fighting Islamic State, according to U.S. officials.

An additional 300 Paratroopers were sent to help the Iraqi military in their six-month assault on the city of Mosul."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 62016.html

neverfail
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Re: The Trump ME Doctrine is another load of expedient bullshit.

Post by neverfail » Sun May 21, 2017 5:44 pm

Darn old seems to have addressed his multi-national Islamic listeners in Riyadh in a performance that for him turned out to be unexpectedly, refreshingly smooth. For once he does not seem to have placed his foot in his mouth.

Yet alas, had Trump chosen to be honest with his Saudi hosts instead of politically/diplomatically expedient; he would have passionately berated his hosts for allowing their country to be the spiritual home of jihadi terrorism in the form of the Wahhabi version of Islam which the Saudi state uses its oil money and its authority as caretaker of the holy places Mecca and Medina to actively sponsor internationally. That means everywhere in earth where Sunni Islam (the Islam of the Saudi monarchy) is endemic.

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affai ... -terrorism

Trump was truly barking up the wrong tree when he tagged (Shia) Iran as the global source of Islamic terrorism: a lie that no doubt was meant to please both his Saudi hosts and his present Sunni listeners from abroad. Trump very likely believes his own bullshit propaganda - as another American whose fundamentalist black-and-white outlook makes him too unsubtle in his thinking to appreciate the importance of the Sunni/Shia nuance. (i.e. Trump, like a lot of his followers, is a bit thick :mrgreen: )

To put it bluntly: Shia Islam, unlike Sunni Islam, is impervious to the influence of Saudi Wahhabism and therefore potentially a better ally for the West.

Americans still do not seem to have got the message that they are following a contradictory foreign policy course by treating snake-in-the-grass Saudi Arabia as their ally while ostracising the Islamic Republic of Iran. The past several US administrations should have been doing the exact opposite.

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Doc
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Re: The Trump Doctrine

Post by Doc » Sun May 21, 2017 9:25 pm

Milo wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 5:31 pm
Doc wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 8:48 am
The Trump Doctrine: Hunt terrorists & we'll help you. Fund terrorists & we'll hunt you. BUT,we won't fight your fights for you
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/opin ... -east.html

A Trump Doctrine for the Middle East?

By MICHAEL DORANMAY 19, 2017
Continue reading the main story
Share This Page
Photo
Credit Mike Reddy

During his campaign, Donald Trump’s Middle East policy seemed to begin and end with his vow to “bomb the hell” out of the Islamic State — a pledge that played well with his base but unsettled establishment foreign policy experts, who worried that the collateral damage would include everything else America has been trying to build in the region.

The establishment was giving itself too much credit: Our policies in the Middle East have been blowing themselves up for a good while. As Mr. Trump embarks Friday on his first foreign trip, including stops in Israel and Saudi Arabia, he has a chance to put in place a new long-term vision. In fact, the outlines of one are already in place. Despite the controversies at home, Mr. Trump may come away with a legacy-cementing achievement: a Trump Doctrine for the Middle East.

The Middle East is complex, but Mr. Trump’s predecessors stumbled for a singular reason: the rise of Iran. As a senior official in the George W. Bush administration, I saw firsthand how President Bush’s democracy project in Iraq diverted attention from countering Iran and its proxies. Mr. Bush seems to have believed that a robust democracy in Iraq would serve simultaneously as a bulwark against Sunni Islamic extremism and Iranian power. In the end, Iran slipped into Iraq under Mr. Bush’s nose, subverted the project, and recruited proxy militias to promote its interests.

Mr. Bush let Iran in by miscalculation. President Barack Obama, by contrast, embraced Iranian ascendancy with open arms — and not just in Iraq, but in Syria as well. Mr. Obama dropped efforts to contain Iran and sought a nuclear accord that would allow the West to normalize relations because he was convinced that recognition of an Iranian sphere of influence would persuade Tehran to function as a partner in stabilizing Iraq and Syria. This was another miscalculation, and it led directly to the Russian-Iranian military alliance in Syria.
Pfft! What a load of crap.

"President Trump is contemplating sending 3,000 to 5,000 more U.S. troops to Afghanistan."

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/17/wha ... ghanistan/

"Earlier this month, 400 Marines were quietly deployed to northern Syria to to support local militias fighting Islamic State, according to U.S. officials.

An additional 300 Paratroopers were sent to help the Iraqi military in their six-month assault on the city of Mosul."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 62016.html
All of which fall under *Helping* locals fight Islamic terrorists
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

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Doc
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Re: The Trump ME Doctrine is another load of expedient bullshit.

Post by Doc » Sun May 21, 2017 9:32 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 5:44 pm
Darn old seems to have addressed his multi-national Islamic listeners in Riyadh in a performance that for him turned out to be unexpectedly, refreshingly smooth. For once he does not seem to have placed his foot in his mouth.

Yet alas, had Trump chosen to be honest with his Saudi hosts instead of politically/diplomatically expedient; he would have passionately berated his hosts for allowing their country to be the spiritual home of jihadi terrorism in the form of the Wahhabi version of Islam which the Saudi state uses its oil money and its authority as caretaker of the holy places Mecca and Medina to actively sponsor internationally. That means everywhere in earth where Sunni Islam (the Islam of the Saudi monarchy) is endemic.

http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affai ... -terrorism

Trump was truly barking up the wrong tree when he tagged (Shia) Iran as the global source of Islamic terrorism: a lie that no doubt was meant to please both his Saudi hosts and his present Sunni listeners from abroad.
Not a lie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_ ... _terrorism
Trump very likely believes his own bullshit propaganda - as another American whose fundamentalist black-and-white outlook makes him too unsubtle in his thinking to appreciate the importance of the Sunni/Shia nuance. (i.e. Trump, like a lot of his followers, is a bit thick :mrgreen: )

To put it bluntly: Shia Islam, unlike Sunni Islam, is impervious to the influence of Saudi Wahhabism and therefore potentially a better ally for the West.

Americans still do not seem to have got the message that they are following a contradictory foreign policy course by treating snake-in-the-grass Saudi Arabia as their ally while ostracising the Islamic Republic of Iran. The past several US administrations should have been doing the exact opposite.
The Saudis admitted years ago they made a mistake in exporting their religious extremists rather than deal with them at home.

Trump gave a very clear message
Hunt terrorists & we'll help you. Fund terrorists & we'll hunt you. BUT,we won't fight your fights for you
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

Jim the Moron
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: The Trump Doctrine

Post by Jim the Moron » Sun May 21, 2017 9:33 pm

neverfail - you are of course correct in pointing out the support the Saudis have provided for terrorist activities around the world. But the same holds true for Iran and other Islamic entities. Barbaric elements within Islam are not confined to Sunni-dominated lands.

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Milo
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Re: The Trump Doctrine

Post by Milo » Sun May 21, 2017 11:02 pm

Doc wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 9:25 pm
Milo wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 5:31 pm
Doc wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 8:48 am
The Trump Doctrine: Hunt terrorists & we'll help you. Fund terrorists & we'll hunt you. BUT,we won't fight your fights for you
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/opin ... -east.html

A Trump Doctrine for the Middle East?

By MICHAEL DORANMAY 19, 2017
Continue reading the main story
Share This Page
Photo
Credit Mike Reddy

During his campaign, Donald Trump’s Middle East policy seemed to begin and end with his vow to “bomb the hell” out of the Islamic State — a pledge that played well with his base but unsettled establishment foreign policy experts, who worried that the collateral damage would include everything else America has been trying to build in the region.

The establishment was giving itself too much credit: Our policies in the Middle East have been blowing themselves up for a good while. As Mr. Trump embarks Friday on his first foreign trip, including stops in Israel and Saudi Arabia, he has a chance to put in place a new long-term vision. In fact, the outlines of one are already in place. Despite the controversies at home, Mr. Trump may come away with a legacy-cementing achievement: a Trump Doctrine for the Middle East.

The Middle East is complex, but Mr. Trump’s predecessors stumbled for a singular reason: the rise of Iran. As a senior official in the George W. Bush administration, I saw firsthand how President Bush’s democracy project in Iraq diverted attention from countering Iran and its proxies. Mr. Bush seems to have believed that a robust democracy in Iraq would serve simultaneously as a bulwark against Sunni Islamic extremism and Iranian power. In the end, Iran slipped into Iraq under Mr. Bush’s nose, subverted the project, and recruited proxy militias to promote its interests.

Mr. Bush let Iran in by miscalculation. President Barack Obama, by contrast, embraced Iranian ascendancy with open arms — and not just in Iraq, but in Syria as well. Mr. Obama dropped efforts to contain Iran and sought a nuclear accord that would allow the West to normalize relations because he was convinced that recognition of an Iranian sphere of influence would persuade Tehran to function as a partner in stabilizing Iraq and Syria. This was another miscalculation, and it led directly to the Russian-Iranian military alliance in Syria.
Pfft! What a load of crap.

"President Trump is contemplating sending 3,000 to 5,000 more U.S. troops to Afghanistan."

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/17/wha ... ghanistan/

"Earlier this month, 400 Marines were quietly deployed to northern Syria to to support local militias fighting Islamic State, according to U.S. officials.

An additional 300 Paratroopers were sent to help the Iraqi military in their six-month assault on the city of Mosul."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 62016.html
All of which fall under *Helping* locals fight Islamic terrorists
I thought Obama got it right too.

neverfail
Posts: 836
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: The Trump ME Doctrine is another load of expedient bullshit.

Post by neverfail » Mon May 22, 2017 1:19 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 5:44 pm
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affai ... -terrorism

Trump was truly barking up the wrong tree when he tagged (Shia) Iran as the global source of Islamic terrorism: a lie that no doubt was meant to please both his Saudi hosts and his present Sunni listeners from abroad.
Doc wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 9:32 pm
Not a lie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_ ... _terrorism

:roll: Very well doc! I will amend my earlier post by conceding that yes, the Islamic Republic of Iran has a past history of selectively nurturing terrorism abroad. Yet I notice that it's own brand of terrorism has targeted other Islamic countries where there are Shia minorities (or majorities, as in Iraq) and therefore Iran as one would expect can wield influence. As for Western targets the pattern I have read (in above link) has been restricted to attacks on the US embassy in Beirut and on the USS Cole off Yemen where Western assets have intruded on to their own patch of turf.

As for attacks in and on Western countries The Islamic Republic seems to have been innocent of all wrongdoing. The 9/11 attack on the Twin Towers; bombings of buses and trains in London and Madrid; mass shootings in a magazine office and a nightclub in Paris; all of these and other horrors of recent memory are entirely examples of Sunni terrorism for which the accusing finger must be pointed at the Saudi Arabian Wahhabi creed, not at Iran.
Doc wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 9:32 pm
The Saudis admitted years ago they made a mistake in exporting their religious extremists rather than deal with them at home.
Doc, I do not know whether you failed to grasp the content of my earlier post or whether you are attempting to be misleadingly ingenuous at this point. I did not even mention (or care about) the random, small number of terrorists of Saudi citizenship but something much more insidious and longer lasting - the Wahhabi creed of Islam that has Saudi Arabia in thrall and which the Saudi state actively promotes abroad. It is this that inspires young, alienated and mentally ill young Sunni men worldwide to become warriors for Allah with the hope of Islamic martyrdom and an early entry to heaven in the afterlife to come.

The Saudi's have never promised to stop doing that and Trump did not ask them to. Until someone finally brings Wahhabism (and Saudi Arabia) to book any pep talk by Trump or any other representative of our Western interest will be merely (figuratively) pissing in the wind.
Doc wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 9:32 pm
Trump gave a very clear message

Hunt terrorists & we'll help you. Fund terrorists & we'll hunt you. BUT,we won't fight your fights for you

Yes, and i NOTICE his listeners gave him polite applause and a public commitment to make a huge purchase of American arms to take home as "evidence" of a successful visit :lol: : whilst the Saudis (and like minded friends) will no doubt laugh at this absurd, blustering kafir behind his back once he has left the country.

I do not believe that the Saudis are the only foreigners who have sized up Trump as potentially a very weak leader open to manipulation by others like that.

Jim the Moron
Posts: 388
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: The Trump Doctrine

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon May 22, 2017 3:28 am

"As for Western targets the pattern I have read (in above link) has been restricted to attacks [by Iranian interests] on the US embassy in Beirut and on the USS Cole off Yemen where Western assets have intruded on to their own patch of turf." (neverfail)

Well, I'm sure the folks in Lebanon and Yemen will be pleased to hear that they are squatting on Persian turf. And even a cursory reading of the Wiki article provided by Doc reveals how extensive Iranian "turf" is, as it includes India, Kenya, Argentina, Thailand, and Germany, among others. The Israelis won't be surprised, however, that they are said to be occupying Iranian "turf."

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Doc
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Re: The Trump Doctrine

Post by Doc » Mon May 22, 2017 7:13 am

Milo wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 11:02 pm
Doc wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 9:25 pm
Milo wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 5:31 pm
Doc wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 8:48 am
The Trump Doctrine: Hunt terrorists & we'll help you. Fund terrorists & we'll hunt you. BUT,we won't fight your fights for you
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/opin ... -east.html

A Trump Doctrine for the Middle East?

By MICHAEL DORANMAY 19, 2017
Continue reading the main story
Share This Page
Photo
Credit Mike Reddy

During his campaign, Donald Trump’s Middle East policy seemed to begin and end with his vow to “bomb the hell” out of the Islamic State — a pledge that played well with his base but unsettled establishment foreign policy experts, who worried that the collateral damage would include everything else America has been trying to build in the region.

The establishment was giving itself too much credit: Our policies in the Middle East have been blowing themselves up for a good while. As Mr. Trump embarks Friday on his first foreign trip, including stops in Israel and Saudi Arabia, he has a chance to put in place a new long-term vision. In fact, the outlines of one are already in place. Despite the controversies at home, Mr. Trump may come away with a legacy-cementing achievement: a Trump Doctrine for the Middle East.

The Middle East is complex, but Mr. Trump’s predecessors stumbled for a singular reason: the rise of Iran. As a senior official in the George W. Bush administration, I saw firsthand how President Bush’s democracy project in Iraq diverted attention from countering Iran and its proxies. Mr. Bush seems to have believed that a robust democracy in Iraq would serve simultaneously as a bulwark against Sunni Islamic extremism and Iranian power. In the end, Iran slipped into Iraq under Mr. Bush’s nose, subverted the project, and recruited proxy militias to promote its interests.

Mr. Bush let Iran in by miscalculation. President Barack Obama, by contrast, embraced Iranian ascendancy with open arms — and not just in Iraq, but in Syria as well. Mr. Obama dropped efforts to contain Iran and sought a nuclear accord that would allow the West to normalize relations because he was convinced that recognition of an Iranian sphere of influence would persuade Tehran to function as a partner in stabilizing Iraq and Syria. This was another miscalculation, and it led directly to the Russian-Iranian military alliance in Syria.
Pfft! What a load of crap.

"President Trump is contemplating sending 3,000 to 5,000 more U.S. troops to Afghanistan."

http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/05/17/wha ... ghanistan/

"Earlier this month, 400 Marines were quietly deployed to northern Syria to to support local militias fighting Islamic State, according to U.S. officials.

An additional 300 Paratroopers were sent to help the Iraqi military in their six-month assault on the city of Mosul."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 62016.html
All of which fall under *Helping* locals fight Islamic terrorists
I thought Obama got it right too.
Milo it has been suggested that the Trump Doctrine is the Milo Doctrine.. Do you agree?
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

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