The Trump Doctrine

Discussion of current events
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Doc
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Re: The Trump ME Doctrine is another load of expedient bullshit.

Post by Doc » Mon May 22, 2017 8:41 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon May 22, 2017 1:19 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 5:44 pm
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affai ... -terrorism

Trump was truly barking up the wrong tree when he tagged (Shia) Iran as the global source of Islamic terrorism: a lie that no doubt was meant to please both his Saudi hosts and his present Sunni listeners from abroad.
Doc wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 9:32 pm
Not a lie

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_and_ ... _terrorism

:roll: Very well doc! I will amend my earlier post by conceding that yes, the Islamic Republic of Iran has a past history of selectively nurturing terrorism abroad. Yet I notice that it's own brand of terrorism has targeted other Islamic countries where there are Shia minorities (or majorities, as in Iraq) and therefore Iran as one would expect can wield influence. As for Western targets the pattern I have read (in above link) has been restricted to attacks on the US embassy in Beirut and on the USS Cole off Yemen where Western assets have intruded on to their own patch of turf.

As for attacks in and on Western countries The Islamic Republic seems to have been innocent of all wrongdoing. The 9/11 attack on the Twin Towers; bombings of buses and trains in London and Madrid; mass shootings in a magazine office and a nightclub in Paris; all of these and other horrors of recent memory are entirely examples of Sunni terrorism for which the accusing finger must be pointed at the Saudi Arabian Wahhabi creed, not at Iran.
Doc wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 9:32 pm
The Saudis admitted years ago they made a mistake in exporting their religious extremists rather than deal with them at home.
Doc, I do not know whether you failed to grasp the content of my earlier post or whether you are attempting to be misleadingly ingenuous at this point. I did not even mention (or care about) the random, small number of terrorists of Saudi citizenship but something much more insidious and longer lasting - the Wahhabi creed of Islam that has Saudi Arabia in thrall and which the Saudi state actively promotes abroad. It is this that inspires young, alienated and mentally ill young Sunni men worldwide to become warriors for Allah with the hope of Islamic martyrdom and an early entry to heaven in the afterlife to come.

The Saudi's have never promised to stop doing that and Trump did not ask them to. Until someone finally brings Wahhabism (and Saudi Arabia) to book any pep talk by Trump or any other representative of our Western interest will be merely (figuratively) pissing in the wind.
Doc wrote:
Sun May 21, 2017 9:32 pm
Trump gave a very clear message

Hunt terrorists & we'll help you. Fund terrorists & we'll hunt you. BUT,we won't fight your fights for you

Yes, and i NOTICE his listeners gave him polite applause and a public commitment to make a huge purchase of American arms to take home as "evidence" of a successful visit :lol: : whilst the Saudis (and like minded friends) will no doubt laugh at this absurd, blustering kafir behind his back once he has left the country.

I do not believe that the Saudis are the only foreigners who have sized up Trump as potentially a very weak leader open to manipulation by others like that.
I think it doesn't matter what Trump does. Nothing would be good for you After all his name is "Trump"
The classes and the races to weak to master the new conditions of life must give way {..} They must perish in the revolutionary holocaust --Karl Marx

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cassowary
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A new Mid East coming? US, Egypt, Saudi and Israel against Iran?

Post by cassowary » Wed May 24, 2017 1:18 am

Both Saudi Arabia and Iran are Islamist countries who spread hatred for unbelievers. So where do the US interests lie? Is it with Iran as oBUMa (and Neverfail thinks)? Or is it with Saudi Arabia?

Clearly, Trump must choose to support one and oppose the other. Just because both Hitler and Stalin were evil dictators did not mean the allies cannot form a temporary alliance with Stalin. It would be foolish for the US to fight both Hitler and Stalin at the same time. Similarly, it would be foolish for the US to confront Iran and Saudi Arabia at the same time.

So in the same way, America must choose to help one to defeat the other. Both Iran and Saudi Arabia are at war. It's a low intensity war fought through proxies. Trump has chosen to reverse oBUMa's policy. He is now supporting Saudi Arabia.

Has Trump chosen wisely? Let's see. Iran has called for the destruction of Israel and organized demonstrations chanting,"Death to America." Iran is also suspected of building nuclear weapons.

Saudi Arabia has not done any of these things.

On top of this, America's closest ally and sole ME democracy, Israel, is worried about the Iranian threat. Here lies the seed of an alliance between Sunni powers, led by Saudi Arabia and Israel. This also means improved chances for a Israel-Palestinian deal. I think the Saudis don't care much for the Palestinians as compared to their life-and-death struggle with Iran.

Hopefully, you may get an unspoken alliance between the Israel and Saudi Arabia. I notice that Netanyahu did not complain when Trump announced his $110 billion arms sale to Saudi Arabia. Here is what Times of Israel has to say:

‘How can it hurt?’ Why Israel says it’s not worried by Trump’s huge Saudi arms deal
Despite the record time, in addition to the record size, of Saturday’s deal, other than Steinitz’s and Kara’s limited concerns, precious little dissent has been voiced against the arms sale. Most have instead described it as either benign or potentially beneficial.

“How can it hurt? For now, there’s an alliance between the US and the Arab world against Iran,” Gilad said.
All the Sunni powers are against Iran. So is Israel. Here lies the seed for an alliance. That is why we have the best chance of a deal between israel and the Palestinians. Saudi Arabia and Egypt do not want any Palestinian distraction from their life and death struggle against Iran. A peace settlement with Israel will help justify to their people their coming alliance with Israel.

In other words, it is now in the interests of Sunni powers like Saudi Arabia and Egypt for the Palestinians to make a peace deal with Israel. This was different in the past when Arab leaders wanted Israel as a distraction for their people from their incompetence and corruption.

So, yes, I believe Trump has chosen wisely. Let's hope his huuuge plan works.

neverfail
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Re: A new Mid East coming? US, Egypt, Saudi and Israel against Iran?

Post by neverfail » Wed May 24, 2017 2:41 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 1:18 am

Saudi Arabia has not done any of these things.

Is that because their heart is in the right place? No! More likely it is because Saudi Arabia's repressive reactionary monarchy has been cuter in diplomacy.

Meantime, the Saudi Wahhabi clerical establishment with state support continues to poison the well globally by propagating the spiritual basis of Islamic extremism and militancy.

In my opinion they are playing the West for suckers!

neverfail
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Re: What bloody doctrine?

Post by neverfail » Wed May 24, 2017 2:44 am

The trump doctrine?

Is a ad-hoc diplomatic tilt prompted by political expediency supposed to constitute a doctrine?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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cassowary
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Sign of the times?

Post by cassowary » Wed May 24, 2017 6:45 pm

Saudi journalist urges Palestinians to make peace with Israel.

As I said above, it is now in the Saudi interest to make an alliance with Israel against the common enemy, Iran. To do that, Saudi Arabia wants Palestine to make peace with Israel so as to dull any domestic backlash.

Remember that Israel does not threaten Saudi Arabia. Iran does.

neverfail
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Re: Sign of the times?

Post by neverfail » Wed May 24, 2017 9:17 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 6:45 pm
Saudi journalist urges Palestinians to make peace with Israel.

As I said above, it is now in the Saudi interest to make an alliance with Israel against the common enemy, Iran. To do that, Saudi Arabia wants Palestine to make peace with Israel so as to dull any domestic backlash.

Remember that Israel does not threaten Saudi Arabia. Iran does.
Absolute agreement with you on that last point Cassowary.

I had often wondered about Iranian anti-Israel posturing. Iran shares no common border with Israel. It is also Aryan in language and culture and so is Israel: an Ashkanazi (Aryan Jewish) construct. Israel and Iran should by rights be friends.

Your post piqued my curiosity about why Iran is so hostile to Israel. I threw the question into Google and this is what I got:

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/be ... -592674840

It grows from history. The legacy of bitterness from the sense of having been the victim of foreign powers.

Mossad was apparently complicit along with the CIA in the overthrow of the Mosaddegh government in 1953 which turned Iran from a budding parliamentary democracy into an absolute monarchy under the thumb of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi.

To put it succinctly: the Ayatollahs are so implacably anti-Israel simply because Pahlavi was so pro-Israel.

If a group of foreign powers meddled in the politics of MY country like that, I would probably be out there on the street with the demonstrators myself chanting "death to Israel; death to America" too. But of course all of the Iran haters in the USA and elsewhere seem to believe that the Iranians should act like ideal Christians and turn the other cheek; forgive and forget.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iran ... 7%C3%A9tat

Jim the Moron
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Re: The Trump Doctrine

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed May 24, 2017 10:32 pm

neverfail - sorry, but your efforts to ascribe motives for Iranian behavior towards Israel as being other than pure unadulterated antisemitism fail the smell test. It is all based on the teachings of Islam.

"Ancient Hatred: Understanding Iran's War on Jews"
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2012/m ... ar-on-jews

The ayatollahs and other creepy leaders in the Islamic world hate Israel because it is primarily inhabited by Jews, and not because of some perceived historical slight. The successes of the accomplished Israelis, in contrast to Muslim societies, serve only to exacerbate this hatred.

neverfail
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Re: The Trump Doctrine

Post by neverfail » Thu May 25, 2017 1:16 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 10:32 pm
neverfail - sorry, but your efforts to ascribe motives for Iranian behavior towards Israel as being other than pure unadulterated antisemitism fail the smell test. It is all based on the teachings of Islam.

"Ancient Hatred: Understanding Iran's War on Jews"
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2012/m ... ar-on-jews

The ayatollahs and other creepy leaders in the Islamic world hate Israel because it is primarily inhabited by Jews, and not because of some perceived historical slight. The successes of the accomplished Israelis, in contrast to Muslim societies, serve only to exacerbate this hatred.
Sorry, but the time of Mohammad is too far in the past to have any practical influence on the present.

I stand by my allegation that official Iranian rage (I believe that younger generation Iranians are quite taken in by American culture) has nothing to do with what Mohammad may or may not have spat out at a time of frustration and a lot to do with the overthrow of the Mosaddegh government in 1953 via CIA and Mossad meddling.
................................................................................................................................
P.S. Does not the United States purport to be the promoter and defender of democracy worldwide? So tell me: why did it make itself complicit in the overthrow of Iran's home grown parliamentary democracy back in 1953 in favou8r of empowering the Shah as a tyrant absolute monarch?

I have never really understood this element of hypocrisy in US foreign policy.

Jim the Moron
Posts: 479
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: The Trump Doctrine

Post by Jim the Moron » Thu May 25, 2017 2:52 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu May 25, 2017 1:16 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 10:32 pm
neverfail - sorry, but your efforts to ascribe motives for Iranian behavior towards Israel as being other than pure unadulterated antisemitism fail the smell test. It is all based on the teachings of Islam.

"Ancient Hatred: Understanding Iran's War on Jews"
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2012/m ... ar-on-jews

The ayatollahs and other creepy leaders in the Islamic world hate Israel because it is primarily inhabited by Jews, and not because of some perceived historical slight. The successes of the accomplished Israelis, in contrast to Muslim societies, serve only to exacerbate this hatred.
Sorry, but the time of Mohammad is too far in the past to have any practical influence on the present.

I stand by my allegation that official Iranian rage (I believe that younger generation Iranians are quite taken in by American culture) has nothing to do with what Mohammad may or may not have spat out at a time of frustration and a lot to do with the overthrow of the Mosaddegh government in 1953 via CIA and Mossad meddling.
................................................................................................................................
P.S. Does not the United States purport to be the promoter and defender of democracy worldwide? So tell me: why did it make itself complicit in the overthrow of Iran's home grown parliamentary democracy back in 1953 in favou8r of empowering the Shah as a tyrant absolute monarch?

I have never really understood this element of hypocrisy in US foreign policy.
Hypocrisy, thou art US foreign policy. But, all the elements of US foreign policy have their roots in one basic reality: the abysmal stupidity of most of the establishment policy makers over the years.

Mohammad's baby, fundamental Islam, is with us today, no less sinister than, say, Rosemary's baby. Whether it be the German's professed resentment of the alleged Jewish involvement in Germany's WWI defeat, resentment by Muslims over the Balfour Declaration, resentment over the ouster of Mosaddegh, etc, the Islamic world (and much of Europe) is not disposed to acknowledge that their gross antisemitism is based on historical religious resentment of Jews and envy of Jewish accomplishment.

neverfail
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Re: What bloody doctrine?

Post by neverfail » Thu May 25, 2017 3:43 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed May 24, 2017 2:44 am
The Trump doctrine?

Is a ad-hoc diplomatic tilt prompted by political expediency supposed to constitute a doctrine?

:lol: :lol: :lol:
I don't usually quote myself but this calls for an exception:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... dis-riyadh

(quote) Siding with Saudi Arabia and antagonising Iran in order to weaken jihadism won’t work, to put it mildly. Though the Saudi kingdom has taken part in military action against Isis, its state textbooks are deemed acceptable in Isis-run schools. It has backed militant Islamist rebels in Syria, and continues to export an extremely intolerant version of Islam.

(Not to mention its bombings in Yemen.) :evil:

Just as I suggested. Trump is much more interested in burnishing his image at home than in solving problems abroad.

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