UK Elections

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SteveFoerster
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Re: UK Elections

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:03 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:38 am
I believe I was the only member of this forum who believed Jeremy Corbyn would do a lot better than most people expected. They may have forgotten that leftist values are well and alive in the world, and that lots of people have not given up on a socially minded state. Many people - and a majority of young people - want such policies and have voted for Labour in the UK. Socialism isn't dead yet and I don't think it will ever be.
You're right, you did predict that. I expect that it was about the UK's role in Europe and about social tolerance towards immigrants, not about "socialism", but it would take exit polling to know for sure.
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President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

neverfail
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Re: UK Elections

Post by neverfail » Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:28 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:03 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:38 am
I believe I was the only member of this forum who believed Jeremy Corbyn would do a lot better than most people expected. They may have forgotten that leftist values are well and alive in the world, and that lots of people have not given up on a socially minded state. Many people - and a majority of young people - want such policies and have voted for Labour in the UK. Socialism isn't dead yet and I don't think it will ever be.
You're right, you did predict that. I expect that it was about the UK's role in Europe and about social tolerance towards immigrants, not about "socialism", but it would take exit polling to know for sure.
I agree with SteveF, Sertorio. Whilst your forecast of the election result proved accurate, your conclusion that the result is a signal that leftist values are alive and well is mistaken. A vote signalling loss of confidence in Theresa May and the government she leads does not necessarily imply a vote in favour of revived :?: "left values": however much Jeremy Corbyn might proclaim these as his own.

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Sertorio
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Re: UK Elections

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:05 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:28 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:03 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:38 am
I believe I was the only member of this forum who believed Jeremy Corbyn would do a lot better than most people expected. They may have forgotten that leftist values are well and alive in the world, and that lots of people have not given up on a socially minded state. Many people - and a majority of young people - want such policies and have voted for Labour in the UK. Socialism isn't dead yet and I don't think it will ever be.
You're right, you did predict that. I expect that it was about the UK's role in Europe and about social tolerance towards immigrants, not about "socialism", but it would take exit polling to know for sure.
I agree with SteveF, Sertorio. Whilst your forecast of the election result proved accurate, your conclusion that the result is a signal that leftist values are alive and well is mistaken. A vote signalling loss of confidence in Theresa May and the government she leads does not necessarily imply a vote in favour of revived :?: "left values": however much Jeremy Corbyn might proclaim these as his own.
If you read Labour's Manifesto you will see that many of those socialist ideals were present there. For instance, improvement on the NHS, doing away with university fees, more social security, nationalisation of railways and utilities... Many people are tired of the civil war neo-liberalism imposes on societies. Survival of the fittest is something that only appeals to the minority at the top of society. Corbyn understood it and offered people hope rather than dispair. That's why people voted Labour. And next time this vote will be big enough to allow Corbyn to become prime minister.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: UK Elections

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:33 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:05 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:28 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:03 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:38 am
I believe I was the only member of this forum who believed Jeremy Corbyn would do a lot better than most people expected. They may have forgotten that leftist values are well and alive in the world, and that lots of people have not given up on a socially minded state. Many people - and a majority of young people - want such policies and have voted for Labour in the UK. Socialism isn't dead yet and I don't think it will ever be.
You're right, you did predict that. I expect that it was about the UK's role in Europe and about social tolerance towards immigrants, not about "socialism", but it would take exit polling to know for sure.
I agree with SteveF, Sertorio. Whilst your forecast of the election result proved accurate, your conclusion that the result is a signal that leftist values are alive and well is mistaken. A vote signalling loss of confidence in Theresa May and the government she leads does not necessarily imply a vote in favour of revived :?: "left values": however much Jeremy Corbyn might proclaim these as his own.
If you read Labour's Manifesto you will see that many of those socialist ideals were present there. For instance, improvement on the NHS, doing away with university fees, more social security, nationalisation of railways and utilities... Many people are tired of the civil war neo-liberalism imposes on societies. Survival of the fittest is something that only appeals to the minority at the top of society. Corbyn understood it and offered people hope rather than dispair. That's why people voted Labour. And next time this vote will be big enough to allow Corbyn to become prime minister.
Merely restating an assertion doesn't actually make a stronger case for it.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

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Sertorio
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Re: UK Elections

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:39 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:33 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:05 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:28 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:03 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:38 am
I believe I was the only member of this forum who believed Jeremy Corbyn would do a lot better than most people expected. They may have forgotten that leftist values are well and alive in the world, and that lots of people have not given up on a socially minded state. Many people - and a majority of young people - want such policies and have voted for Labour in the UK. Socialism isn't dead yet and I don't think it will ever be.
You're right, you did predict that. I expect that it was about the UK's role in Europe and about social tolerance towards immigrants, not about "socialism", but it would take exit polling to know for sure.
I agree with SteveF, Sertorio. Whilst your forecast of the election result proved accurate, your conclusion that the result is a signal that leftist values are alive and well is mistaken. A vote signalling loss of confidence in Theresa May and the government she leads does not necessarily imply a vote in favour of revived :?: "left values": however much Jeremy Corbyn might proclaim these as his own.
If you read Labour's Manifesto you will see that many of those socialist ideals were present there. For instance, improvement on the NHS, doing away with university fees, more social security, nationalisation of railways and utilities... Many people are tired of the civil war neo-liberalism imposes on societies. Survival of the fittest is something that only appeals to the minority at the top of society. Corbyn understood it and offered people hope rather than dispair. That's why people voted Labour. And next time this vote will be big enough to allow Corbyn to become prime minister.
Merely restating an assertion doesn't actually make a stronger case for it.
What evidence do you have that Labour's manifesto - leftist as it was - had little or no influence on the increase in Labour's vote?

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Sertorio
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Re: UK Elections

Post by Sertorio » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:23 am

(...)

What’s puzzling me is not the party’s exceptional performance, but the long line of commentators, pundits and politicians now shaking their heads in disbelief. Having spent nearly two years kicking Jeremy Corbyn and John McDonnell, and vilifying their supporters, they convinced themselves the pair were nothing but, at best, a pair of incompetent losers; at worst, dangerous, even treacherous, ideologues. They predicted doom at the polls because, as we all know, the British don’t like losers and they don’t like IRA-loving Marxist vegetarians who secretly want to tax your gardens and surrender the country to Islamists. A very few have had the decency to apologise.

But why were their predictions so woefully wrong? What did they miss?

They say that Corbyn performed better than expected (more accurately, better than they expected). They point to May’s disastrous and mean-spirited campaign (no argument there). They note that the young were mobilised, the elderly scared, and the manifesto was bright, sensible and attractive. All true, to some degree. But there’s more to it than this, and actually it’s no mystery. Any one of the tens of thousands of selfless activists who went out in rain and shine to knock on doors for Labour could tell you: the reason Corbyn-led Labour did so well is because poverty and inequality are now at levels that would embarrass even the most brazen kleptocracy of the most corrupt banana republic. And they trust Corbyn’s Labour to do something about it.

(...)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... inequality
Maybe this text will help some of you understanding that people voted Labour because they agree with Labour's values, and not because they wanted to spite Theresa May...

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cassowary
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Re: UK Elections

Post by cassowary » Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:44 am

It's the values that bankrupted Venezuela. The values are "gimme your money." Bye bye Britain.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: UK Elections

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Jun 10, 2017 5:16 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:39 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:33 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:05 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 2:28 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:03 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:38 am
I believe I was the only member of this forum who believed Jeremy Corbyn would do a lot better than most people expected. They may have forgotten that leftist values are well and alive in the world, and that lots of people have not given up on a socially minded state. Many people - and a majority of young people - want such policies and have voted for Labour in the UK. Socialism isn't dead yet and I don't think it will ever be.
You're right, you did predict that. I expect that it was about the UK's role in Europe and about social tolerance towards immigrants, not about "socialism", but it would take exit polling to know for sure.
I agree with SteveF, Sertorio. Whilst your forecast of the election result proved accurate, your conclusion that the result is a signal that leftist values are alive and well is mistaken. A vote signalling loss of confidence in Theresa May and the government she leads does not necessarily imply a vote in favour of revived :?: "left values": however much Jeremy Corbyn might proclaim these as his own.
If you read Labour's Manifesto you will see that many of those socialist ideals were present there. For instance, improvement on the NHS, doing away with university fees, more social security, nationalisation of railways and utilities... Many people are tired of the civil war neo-liberalism imposes on societies. Survival of the fittest is something that only appeals to the minority at the top of society. Corbyn understood it and offered people hope rather than dispair. That's why people voted Labour. And next time this vote will be big enough to allow Corbyn to become prime minister.
Merely restating an assertion doesn't actually make a stronger case for it.
What evidence do you have that Labour's manifesto - leftist as it was - had little or no influence on the increase in Labour's vote?
Hey, you made the initial assertion. It's your job to back it up.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: http://newworld.ac

neverfail
Posts: 627
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: the horse came in a good second place - so what?

Post by neverfail » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:12 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:39 pm

What evidence do you have that Labour's manifesto - leftist as it was - had little or no influence on the increase in Labour's vote?
It might have - though Labour still won far fewer votes and seats in Parliament than the Conservatives, despite Theresa May's reputedly woeful election campaign. Which implies to me that the voters' confidence in Jeremy Corbym is still not all that high.

Just curious to know Sertorio: what moves you to think that compassion in politics is a monopoly of the left?

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Sertorio
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Re: the horse came in a good second place - so what?

Post by Sertorio » Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:39 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jun 11, 2017 1:12 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:39 pm

What evidence do you have that Labour's manifesto - leftist as it was - had little or no influence on the increase in Labour's vote?
It might have - though Labour still won far fewer votes and seats in Parliament than the Conservatives, despite Theresa May's reputedly woeful election campaign. Which implies to me that the voters' confidence in Jeremy Corbym is still not all that high.

Just curious to know Sertorio: what moves you to think that compassion in politics is a monopoly of the left?
Give me some examples of it coming from the right...

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