The Syria War

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SteveFoerster
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Re: The Syria War

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:00 pm

Milo wrote:
Jim the Moron wrote:Google obliges -

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... s-prisons/
Although we all poke at Sertorio's MO, you have to admit no pro would make that mistake!
It does seem like he'll probably get written up. ;)
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Sertorio
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Re: The Syria War

Post by Sertorio » Sun Dec 18, 2016 5:09 pm

Milo wrote:
Jim the Moron wrote:Google obliges -

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... s-prisons/
Although we all poke at Sertorio's MO, you have to admit no pro would make that mistake!
Milo, I never doubted the murderous violence of the Syrian regime, my doubts had a lot more to do with the actual number of victims of that regime, in view of the figures often mentioned by many of Bashar al-Assad's critics. Then, if we compare the more than 17,000 political victims among opponents of al-Assad with the over 450,000 victims of the civil war, we must conclude that those who fight against al-Assad are no better than the Syrian forces. Both are guilty of mass murder, with most of the victims innocent civilians. Rather than trying to figure out which side is less murderous, we should hope for a peaceful outcome of this struggle, through negotiation. A negotiation which must include the present government and their opponents. Trying to make the ousting of al-Assad a condition for a negotiation is killing those negotiations even before they start. Bashar al-Assad has, for the past few months, granted amnesty to tens of thousands of rebels, provided they laid down their weapons and went back to a peaceful life. Which seems to mean that he understands that peace is not possible without acceptance of a non-violent political opposition. Pressured by Russia I doubt al-Assad would dare not to accept a fair deal with the opposition. Once peace achieved, a new constitution must be approved and free elections held. Bashar al-Assad's Baathist party would then have the influence voters would want to give it. Majority of minority will be the result of the vote, and averyone must accept it. I think that's possible to achieve, as I think that only Russia and Turkey are capable of achieving it. I doubt there will be place for the US in such a process.

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Milo
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Re: The Syria War

Post by Milo » Sun Dec 18, 2016 11:09 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Milo wrote:
Jim the Moron wrote:Google obliges -

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... s-prisons/
Although we all poke at Sertorio's MO, you have to admit no pro would make that mistake!
Milo, I never doubted the murderous violence of the Syrian regime, my doubts had a lot more to do with the actual number of victims of that regime, in view of the figures often mentioned by many of Bashar al-Assad's critics. Then, if we compare the more than 17,000 political victims among opponents of al-Assad with the over 450,000 victims of the civil war, we must conclude that those who fight against al-Assad are no better than the Syrian forces. Both are guilty of mass murder, with most of the victims innocent civilians. Rather than trying to figure out which side is less murderous, we should hope for a peaceful outcome of this struggle, through negotiation. A negotiation which must include the present government and their opponents. Trying to make the ousting of al-Assad a condition for a negotiation is killing those negotiations even before they start. Bashar al-Assad has, for the past few months, granted amnesty to tens of thousands of rebels, provided they laid down their weapons and went back to a peaceful life. Which seems to mean that he understands that peace is not possible without acceptance of a non-violent political opposition. Pressured by Russia I doubt al-Assad would dare not to accept a fair deal with the opposition. Once peace achieved, a new constitution must be approved and free elections held. Bashar al-Assad's Baathist party would then have the influence voters would want to give it. Majority of minority will be the result of the vote, and averyone must accept it. I think that's possible to achieve, as I think that only Russia and Turkey are capable of achieving it. I doubt there will be place for the US in such a process.
I don't trust the statistics or motivations of people that I don't agree with, only the ones of people that I do agree with.

If only the people that I agree with ran things then everything would be perfect.

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Sertorio
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Re: The Syria War

Post by Sertorio » Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:05 am

Milo wrote:
Sertorio wrote:
Milo wrote:
Jim the Moron wrote:Google obliges -

https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/ ... s-prisons/
Although we all poke at Sertorio's MO, you have to admit no pro would make that mistake!
Milo, I never doubted the murderous violence of the Syrian regime, my doubts had a lot more to do with the actual number of victims of that regime, in view of the figures often mentioned by many of Bashar al-Assad's critics. Then, if we compare the more than 17,000 political victims among opponents of al-Assad with the over 450,000 victims of the civil war, we must conclude that those who fight against al-Assad are no better than the Syrian forces. Both are guilty of mass murder, with most of the victims innocent civilians. Rather than trying to figure out which side is less murderous, we should hope for a peaceful outcome of this struggle, through negotiation. A negotiation which must include the present government and their opponents. Trying to make the ousting of al-Assad a condition for a negotiation is killing those negotiations even before they start. Bashar al-Assad has, for the past few months, granted amnesty to tens of thousands of rebels, provided they laid down their weapons and went back to a peaceful life. Which seems to mean that he understands that peace is not possible without acceptance of a non-violent political opposition. Pressured by Russia I doubt al-Assad would dare not to accept a fair deal with the opposition. Once peace achieved, a new constitution must be approved and free elections held. Bashar al-Assad's Baathist party would then have the influence voters would want to give it. Majority of minority will be the result of the vote, and averyone must accept it. I think that's possible to achieve, as I think that only Russia and Turkey are capable of achieving it. I doubt there will be place for the US in such a process.
I don't trust the statistics or motivations of people that I don't agree with, only the ones of people that I do agree with.

If only the people that I agree with ran things then everything would be perfect.
As usual, a not very helpful post. Unless it was meant as a self critical statement...

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Sertorio
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Re: The Syria War

Post by Sertorio » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:05 am

RUSSIA, TURKEY & IRAN PREPARE DECLARATION ON IMMEDIATE STEPS IN RESOLVING SYRIAN CRISIS
https://southfront.org/russia-turkey-ir ... an-crisis/

Russia, Turkey and Iran have prepared a text of the Moscow declaration on immediate steps in resolving the Syrian conflict and are ready to guarant its implementation, Russia’s Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu announced.

“Today experts are working on the text of the Moscow declaration on immediate steps toward resolving the Syrian crisis. This is a thorough, extremely necessary document,” the Russian defense minister said at the meeting with his Iranian counterpart Hossein Dehghan.
Shoigu said that all previous “attempts to agree on joint efforts undertaken by the US or their partners were doomed” and added that “none of them exerted real influence on the situation on the ground.”

The Russian official emphasized that the approval of the declaration at the level of defense and foreign ministers shows a willingness to “act as guarantors and jointly resolve the urgent issues of the Syrian crisis.”

Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlüt Cavusoglu is also currently in Moscow for talks with Russia’s Sergey Lavrov and Iran’s Mohammad Javad Zarif. Cavusoglu said that the trilateral cooperation has proven its effectiveness in eastern Aleppo and vowed to spread ot to other parts of Syria.

Cavusoglu said tha the ceasefire should be implemented in all parts of Syria, but it doesn’t concern ISIS or Jabhat Fateh al-Sham (formerly Jabhat al-Nusra).
Little by little the diplomatic side of the struggle is being taken over by Russia, Turkey and Iran, leaving the US and the European countries out of the picture. Hopefully this will lead to real peace in Syria and to the recognition by all Syrian parties of political and religious freedom for all. If successful this will be the signal that the US is no longer welcome in the ME.

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dagbay
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Re: The Syria War

Post by dagbay » Tue Dec 20, 2016 1:09 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Little by little the diplomatic side of the struggle is being taken over by Russia, Turkey and Iran, leaving the US and the European countries out of the picture. Hopefully this will lead to real peace in Syria and to the recognition by all Syrian parties of political and religious freedom for all. If successful this will be the signal that the US is no longer welcome in the ME.
We have a saying - Blessed be the believer
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: The Syria War

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Dec 20, 2016 5:18 pm

Sertorio wrote:Little by little the diplomatic side of the struggle is being taken over by Russia, Turkey and Iran, leaving the US and the European countries out of the picture. Hopefully this will lead to real peace in Syria and to the recognition by all Syrian parties of political and religious freedom for all. If successful this will be the signal that the US is no longer welcome in the ME.
The closest thing to peace would be dictatorship clamping down on simmering resentment. But if your regime wants that quagmire, the smartest thing American policymakers could do would be to give you exactly what you wish for.
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Sertorio
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Re: The Syria War

Post by Sertorio » Wed Dec 21, 2016 2:08 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sertorio wrote:Little by little the diplomatic side of the struggle is being taken over by Russia, Turkey and Iran, leaving the US and the European countries out of the picture. Hopefully this will lead to real peace in Syria and to the recognition by all Syrian parties of political and religious freedom for all. If successful this will be the signal that the US is no longer welcome in the ME.
The closest thing to peace would be dictatorship clamping down on simmering resentment. But if your regime wants that quagmire, the smartest thing American policymakers could do would be to give you exactly what you wish for.
American policymakers have for decades done exactly that, in countries such as Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Ukraine, etc.... Some of us would like to prevent that happening in Syria...

Jim the Moron
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Re: The Syria War

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Dec 21, 2016 3:05 am

Sertorio wrote:
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sertorio wrote:Little by little the diplomatic side of the struggle is being taken over by Russia, Turkey and Iran, leaving the US and the European countries out of the picture. Hopefully this will lead to real peace in Syria and to the recognition by all Syrian parties of political and religious freedom for all. If successful this will be the signal that the US is no longer welcome in the ME.
The closest thing to peace would be dictatorship clamping down on simmering resentment. But if your regime wants that quagmire, the smartest thing American policymakers could do would be to give you exactly what you wish for.
American policymakers have for decades done exactly that, in countries such as Chile, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Guatemala, Ukraine, etc.... Some of us would like to prevent that happening in Syria...
Yes, can the Americans finally learn from history? Seems the Russians can't. The "quagmire" that was Afghanistan trapped them before it trapped the US

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dagbay
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Re: The Syria War

Post by dagbay » Wed Dec 21, 2016 11:51 am

I think that a pragmatic approach is required and it would be nice if Trump adopts it, after all he is a businessman and not an ideologue.
National survival must trump everything else. This includes reasonable condition for the citizens which allow prosperity and continuation of national political stability. With the national security in place then a nation can turn to like minded nations with similar view and national security and form an alliance. Next the allies can project support to other nations that wish make the transition to become part of the alliance. Any nation that does not wish to make the transition can be engaged with in trade and secondary agreements subject to the primary rules aforementioned.

This approach is unfortunately not acceptable to Liberals because it suggests that a Nation will stand on the sideline even when atrocities are performed in unallied parts of the world. Unfortunately however it is precisely the situation today and has been so for centuries in spite of all the cries for action. The basic premise is that any attempt to apply morality to international policy is doomed to bring harm or prove fatal to a Nation despite the noble intentions. This is similar to a bystander who must calculate his moves before attempting to block a bully from attacking a weaker opponent. One better make sure that the outcome will be better in the selected course of action and that the risks are manageable as far as one's survival. It is a sad reality.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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