Israel

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Jim the Moron
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Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Sat May 13, 2017 6:50 pm

Sertorio - I've delayed replying in hopes that dagbay, who is of course much more knowledgeable about the State of Israel than I (I've never been there), would provide a response. By the way, where are you, Ellens? We miss your approx. biannual commentary on the old forum. But anyway . . .

Israel's "legitimate" borders? Who determines? Please amplify, Sertorio. Legitimate borders, in the eyes of most Israelis,are those that include the whole of Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and the Golan Heights. Certain Islamic interests believe that Israel should be destroyed. Who should determine? (Please don't say the UN . . .)

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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Sun May 14, 2017 4:39 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat May 13, 2017 6:50 pm
Sertorio - I've delayed replying in hopes that dagbay, who is of course much more knowledgeable about the State of Israel than I (I've never been there), would provide a response. By the way, where are you, Ellens? We miss your approx. biannual commentary on the old forum. But anyway . . .

Israel's "legitimate" borders? Who determines? Please amplify, Sertorio. Legitimate borders, in the eyes of most Israelis,are those that include the whole of Jerusalem, Judea and Samaria, and the Golan Heights. Certain Islamic interests believe that Israel should be destroyed. Who should determine? (Please don't say the UN . . .)
Partition of Palestine was imperfect but at least it was internationally recognized. As far as I know the original borders of Israel - as determined by the sanctioned partition - are the only legitimate borders of Israel. Subsequent changes resulted from war and were never accepted under international law. If you think that war is an acceptable manner of changing borders, then you must risk a future war reducing Israel to a much smaller territory. And you must accept Crimea's integration in the Russian Federation...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Israel

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun May 14, 2017 9:20 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 4:39 am
If you think that war is an acceptable manner of changing borders, then you must risk a future war reducing Israel to a much smaller territory. And you must accept Crimea's integration in the Russian Federation...
Thank you for admitting that Russia's borders have changed through war with Ukraine.
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Sertorio
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Re: Israel

Post by Sertorio » Sun May 14, 2017 10:04 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 9:20 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 4:39 am
If you think that war is an acceptable manner of changing borders, then you must risk a future war reducing Israel to a much smaller territory. And you must accept Crimea's integration in the Russian Federation...
Thank you for admitting that Russia's borders have changed through war with Ukraine.
No, that was not what was implied in my statement. If you would be willing to accept a change of borders in the Ukraine by means of war, you will certainly accept such a change much more easily when no war was needed, just a referendum...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Israel

Post by SteveFoerster » Sun May 14, 2017 12:43 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 10:04 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 9:20 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun May 14, 2017 4:39 am
If you think that war is an acceptable manner of changing borders, then you must risk a future war reducing Israel to a much smaller territory. And you must accept Crimea's integration in the Russian Federation...
Thank you for admitting that Russia's borders have changed through war with Ukraine.
No, that was not what was implied in my statement. If you would be willing to accept a change of borders in the Ukraine by means of war, you will certainly accept such a change much more easily when no war was needed, just a referendum...
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Jim the Moron
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Re: Israel

Post by Jim the Moron » Tue May 30, 2017 2:56 pm

As it happens, the Ukraine is a fair little distance from Israel . . .

Anyway -
"The root cause of the conflict was and still is the refusal of the Palestinians to recognize the State of Israel as the nation state of the Jewish People under any borders." Not a difficult concept.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Netany ... lse-494317

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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:50 pm

Ah legitimate borders what a great measure to decide the lines between nations. Only who determines what is legitimate?
If one uses einchient history as a sole basis for legitimacy that clearly every nation in existence today is at least in part claiming illegitimate boarders that have been moved through war and conquest.
But if you insist on this measure of legitimacy than israel boarders extend at least to the land currently under israeli military control. At maximum it covers part of Jordan settled by three israeli tribes according to biblical historical and proven archeological record (which muslims are working hard to demolish destroy and erase).

But there are other legitimacy possibilities. Nations have conquered land and settled it throughout history by displacement of native population and or assimilating it. If you choose this path than there are a few variants.
Award by petition was discussed above so i will not repeat it.
International common practice that has been ratified by international bodies is that land purchases and land taken in defensive wars belongs to the purchaser or conqueror respectively.
If you choose this definition than Israel legitimate boarder are limited to the borders it controls at this time and no more. For Arabs to gain territory absent an agreement they would have to win an area under defensive war. So they would have to provoke Israel to start a war and lose territory. The a repeat of a new act of beligerancy by the Arabs could also lead to an expansion of Israel current land control.

The last option I can see for legitimacy is irrevocable international agreement to award land to a national group. There are several issues with this approach to legitimate border definition. But there is no requirement that the land in question be empty. There are a number of historical examples of this "legal" definition of borders. A few involving a population transfer numbering millions of native residents. Should you choose this method you can be assured that Israel borders are again more or less the current area under Israeli military control. By virtue of the Otoman land purchases British mandate award and league of nations decision. (You may not know that jews procured parts of the Golan heights and some land adjacent which is in what used to be Syria from the Otoman sultan with preserved deeds).
Final point to our friend from Iran who seem to be working from a prescribed theology that there are Zionist Jews who are not in his view legitimate Jews and other True Jews. Remember that Legitimacy is in the eye of the beholder as covered above. Traditionally and genetically they all are true jews. It is not easy and throughout history quite undesirable to become Jewish. Conversion is painful and hard and actively discouraged. Even so the majority of Jews currently living in israel are of recent middle east origin.

BTW persicum, you might know that Persia was not originally Muslim but through Islamic conquests became first dihimny nation and later some of its population accepted Islam. To date Iran is a home to many ethnic diverse groups including Kurds, yazidies, turkemens, bsluchies, Persians and of course Muslims. Yes jews live in Iran - I know that over the past decades many escaped and emigrated among other places to Israel and Canada- their stories do not jive with the videos posted here. You might also know that there was great cooperation between Israel and Iran prior to the Islamic revolution.

Been busy "Jim the moron" busy and with Trump at the helm a lot more relaxed. Obama was conniving and that kept me up time used to post comments and thoughts"
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Israel

Post by SteveFoerster » Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:54 pm

dagbay wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:50 pm
To date Iran is a home to many ethnic diverse groups including Kurds, yazidies, turkemens, bsluchies, Persians and of course Muslims.
Did you just use "Muslims" when you meant "Arabs"?
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dagbay
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Re: Israel

Post by dagbay » Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:24 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 7:54 pm
dagbay wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 1:50 pm
To date Iran is a home to many ethnic diverse groups including Kurds, yazidies, turkemens, bsluchies, Persians and of course Muslims.
Did you just use "Muslims" when you meant "Arabs"?
To be sure Arabs is a term originally used to identify people who are descents of Arabia AKA Saudi Arabia. But Muslim conquests have spread the Arabs over more than 20 countries. Past Arabs held many faiths including Christian and Muslim variants, Druze and more. Over the past decades Arabs have clensed most of their countries from Arab Christians so it is safe to generalize and interchange the terms Arab and Muslim.

To the best of my knowledge there are two Muslim sects in Iran. There is a relatively small Shia segment which is connected with th Islamic ruling class. It is dwarfed by a larger Sunni that is harassed and superseded yet it dwells in the oil rich southwest part of Iran. That sunni contingency has strong links to SA.

Another curious factoid which Persicum might want to elaborate on is that the regime in Iran is holding the country together by an iron fist. The large minorities in Iran each has aspirations to merge with its ethnic brothers just over the borders. Kurds wish to join Kurds in the north west. The sunnies mentioned wish to joined SA in the southwest yazidies or what's left of them were linked to the western yazidies in Iraq while Baluchies wish to link with the Afghan contingency of the same ethnic background. Some sources say that ethnic Persians are a shrinking minority in their own country.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
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Re: Israel

Post by neverfail » Sun Jun 04, 2017 1:57 am

dagbay wrote:
Sat Jun 03, 2017 9:24 pm

To the best of my knowledge there are two Muslim sects in Iran. There is a relatively small Shia segment which is connected with th Islamic ruling class. It is dwarfed by a larger Sunni that is harassed and superseded yet it dwells in the oil rich southwest part of Iran. That sunni contingency has strong links to SA.
According to my information, Iran has a population of around 77 million of whom 90 to 95% are Shia.

Shia is very much the prevailing Islam of Iran -decidedly mainstream. The Sunni component is small enough to be considered insignificant.

http://www.pewforum.org/2009/10/07/mapp ... opulation/

(scroll down and see under heading Countries with More Than 100,000 Shia Muslims)

So dagbay, please tell us: did you post the above bit of disinformation out of ignorance (unmitigated by any attempt at researching your subject matter beforehand): or were you attempting to push an outrageous lie for some sort of political objective; not evident to the rest of us? :?: :?: :?:

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