Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

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cassowary
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by cassowary » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:43 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:05 pm
Must say . . . what's with all this dumping on Singapore?
They are leftists and leftists don't like Singapore because it is an example of how successful a capitalist society can be.

neverfail
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by neverfail » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:41 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:28 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:48 pm


Prevent riots? Cass, WHY are they so scared in Singapore of riots breaking out? If Singapore is such an uptight society that they are perennially scared of peaceful protest demonstrations degenerating onto lawless rioting, then there must be something radically wrong over there.
We saw what happened in western countries and we don't like it. We like law and order. No riots. We don't like to see people getting hurt and property damaged. A park is a good place to hold demonstrations. The only things they can damage are trees if things get rowdy.
:roll: :roll: Now there is a specious argument if ever I saw one. :D

Are you trying to make out that we don't cherish law and order in Western society? That we condone lawless, riotous mob behaviour? You claim to have lived in at least 2 Western countries and visited others so you should know better than that Cass.

If you are thinking about events in Charlottesville, USA of recent memory: conflict like that happens because the USA is currently in a state of heightened social tension - not because it permits ad hoc public protest demonstrations. It reminds me of the state of stress the USA worked itself up into back in the 1960's - cumulating in the legendary long hot summerm of 1968 when riots broke out in over 200 cities across the US in the wake of the assassination of Dr Martin Luther King. But that was probably before your time.

The USA is not the only one either. Across the West and especially in Europe heightened tensions have likewise built up: though mostly for reasons unrelated to those in the USA. The sole exceptions here (so far) would appear to be Australia and (possibly) Canada - though in the case of the latter I will not be able to confirm this until I visit the place probably around May 2018. :D

As for poor Singapore: there you seem to live permanently in a state of heightened tension with no way to vent it apart from sidelined, ineffectual public demonstrations in a public park. :lol:

neverfail
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by neverfail » Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:53 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:43 am
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 6:05 pm
Must say . . . what's with all this dumping on Singapore?
They are leftists and leftists don't like Singapore because it is an example of how successful a capitalist society can be.
:o Does that include me? :roll:

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Milo
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by Milo » Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:13 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:20 am
Milo wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:32 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 12:19 am

Singapore ranks 9th for rule of law, according to the World Justice Project, which reflects well on its courts. By the way, Canada ranks 11; Australia ranks 12 and the US ranks 18. After Muellers' witch hunt, I think US ranking is going to drop.
Rule of law is essential a proper society but freedom of expression and democracy are also necessary. In my view all are equally important and Singapore is rather lacking in the other two.

Freedom House gives Singapore a D minus for freedom.

https://freedomhouse.org/report/freedom ... /singapore
As usual, you got your facts wrong, Milo. You did not read your own link carefully. Freedom House did not rate D or D- for Singapore's freedom of expression. They were referring to category D! Freedom House rated Singapore's freedom of expression to be 9/16. It is still a passing mark.

If you were referring to overall freedom, they rated Singapore 4/7 - also a passing mark. Their ratings are numeric and not alphabetic.
Apparently you didn't read the aggregate score of 51/100.

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cassowary
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by cassowary » Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:23 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 12:41 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:28 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2017 3:48 pm


Prevent riots? Cass, WHY are they so scared in Singapore of riots breaking out? If Singapore is such an uptight society that they are perennially scared of peaceful protest demonstrations degenerating onto lawless rioting, then there must be something radically wrong over there.
We saw what happened in western countries and we don't like it. We like law and order. No riots. We don't like to see people getting hurt and property damaged. A park is a good place to hold demonstrations. The only things they can damage are trees if things get rowdy.
:roll: :roll: Now there is a specious argument if ever I saw one. :D

Are you trying to make out that we don't cherish law and order in Western society? That we condone lawless, riotous mob behaviour? You claim to have lived in at least 2 Western countries and visited others so you should know better than that Cass.
I am sure you do care for law and order. It is a matter of degree. We value law and order more highly. To prevent violence against lives and property, we limit demonstrations to Hong Lim Park with the police watching.
If you are thinking about events in Charlottesville, USA of recent memory: conflict like that happens because the USA is currently in a state of heightened social tension - not because it permits ad hoc public protest demonstrations. It reminds me of the state of stress the USA worked itself up into back in the 1960's - cumulating in the legendary long hot summerm of 1968 when riots broke out in over 200 cities across the US in the wake of the assassination of Dr Martin Luther King. But that was probably before your time.


Exactly. Ad hoc public protests can sometimes spiral out of control. You have helped me win the argument. How many people died in that 1968 riots? What was the cost of the damage? One reason why we achieved success is because we maintained a high standard of law and order.

The demonstrators should give advance warning before demonstrating. Civic and government leaders can use that time to explain the facts, debunk rumors and take corrective measures to cool their passions. It will save lives by preventing riots. Limiting the demonstrators to a public park with the police watching will prevent damage to property.
The USA is not the only one either. Across the West and especially in Europe heightened tensions have likewise built up: though mostly for reasons unrelated to those in the USA. The sole exceptions here (so far) would appear to be Australia and (possibly) Canada - though in the case of the latter I will not be able to confirm this until I visit the place probably around May 2018. :D

As for poor Singapore: there you seem to live permanently in a state of heightened tension with no way to vent it apart from sidelined, ineffectual public demonstrations in a public park. :lol:
Tensions can build up in any society. We are humans and so have emotions. What is important is how to manage those social tensions. Our way minimizes public violence.

Wiki has compiled riots in Singapore. Since Independence in 1965, we only had two riots - in 1969 and 2013.

Our good track record of 44 years without a riot was broken in 2013 when low wage foreign workers (the kind that Jolovan Wham champions) rioted. They were enraged when one of them was accidentally knocked down by a bus. It had nothing to do with free speech or politics. None of the demonstrations in Hong Lim Park resulted in violence.

neverfail
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by neverfail » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:03 am

Jolovan Wham. Not any interfering foreigner but a Sino-Singaporean by birth. Age 37 he is a product of the very Singapore that Lee Kwan Yew built : in a milder form he reminds me a little of Soviet dissident the late Alexander Solzenitzen, a new Soviet man, who book The GULAG Archipelago exposed the infamous system of political prison camps in his country.

Like Solzenitzen Wham is saying "not good enough!" Like Solzenitzen he is being persecuted by the official guardians of law and order for trying to tell them what they don't want to hear. Like the Soviet dissident of yore he is pushing the envelope against the restrictions placed on him and his peers by the same authorities.

http://www.dtp.unsw.edu.au/jolovan-wham

Jolovan Wham is executive director of the Humanitarian Organisation for Migration Economics (HOME). HOME was established with the vision of making Singapore a country that welcomed migrant workers and protected their human rights.

In others words, he is campaigning so that foreign migrant workers can have the same rights under law that their counterparts already enjoy in other Commonwealth of Nations countries like Canada and Australia. For this laudable goal the control freak Singapore authorities employ every petty rule they can muster to quash anything that resembles political activity outside the sanction of the PAP to crush it.

To think that some dupes actually believe that these repressive laws are actually there to benefit the people of Singapore. :lol:

Some people will believe anything they are told by officialdom. :oops:

Tens of millions of Germans once believed Adolf Hitler. :cry:

neverfail
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by neverfail » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:20 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2017 8:23 pm

Our good track record of 44 years without a riot was broken in 2013 when low wage foreign workers (the kind that Jolovan Wham champions) rioted.
Since they have no rights in Singapore and no channels to the authorities by which to lodge their complaints; when their accumulated anger gets triggered off by some incident like that bus accident, then is there anything to restrain their anger from finding expression through violence?

None that I can see. That is the lesson that repressive regimes never seem to learn.

Even the USSR had a very good record of nil riots over any given 44 year period of its existence for similar reasons.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by Jim the Moron » Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:01 am

neverfail - What's with this incessant stream of attacks on Singapore? Could it be based on:

1. A belief that Singapore treats its migrant workers so badly vs international norms that it needs to be chastised?

2. A belief that Singaporeans are so repressed by their government that they live downtrodden lives compared to other nations?

3. A belief that the Singapore government would be more successful if it did as you wish?

4. Or, could it be (as I suspect) that you resent the relative success of a predominately non-Caucasian commonwealth nation over that of yours and others?

neverfail
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by neverfail » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:36 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:01 am
neverfail - What's with this incessant stream of attacks on Singapore? Could it be based on:

1. A belief that Singapore treats its migrant workers so badly vs international norms that it needs to be chastised?

2. A belief that Singaporeans are so repressed by their government that they live downtrodden lives compared to other nations?

3. A belief that the Singapore government would be more successful if it did as you wish?

4. Or, could it be (as I suspect) that you resent the relative success of a predominately non-Caucasian commonwealth nation over that of yours and others?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

When they "play the man instead of playing the ball" I know that I have won the argument. Take note Jim!

Jim the Moron
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Re: Singapore establishment feels threatened by the exercise of democratic rights.

Post by Jim the Moron » Sat Dec 09, 2017 5:43 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:36 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:01 am
neverfail - What's with this incessant stream of attacks on Singapore? Could it be based on:

1. A belief that Singapore treats its migrant workers so badly vs international norms that it needs to be chastised?

2. A belief that Singaporeans are so repressed by their government that they live downtrodden lives compared to other nations?

3. A belief that the Singapore government would be more successful if it did as you wish?

4. Or, could it be (as I suspect) that you resent the relative success of a predominately non-Caucasian commonwealth nation over that of yours and others?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

When they "play the man instead of playing the ball" I know that I have won the argument. Take note Jim!
Didn't know there was an argument. Seems pretty much straightforward. Folks envious of Singapore's successes are bereft of facts in support of their silly-assed commentaries.

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